Family Business Audiocast | Episode 22 | Dave Specht | The Drucker School of Management

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About Our Guest:

Dave Specht currently holds the position of Director at the Global Family Business Institute located at The Drucker School of Management. Before assuming his current role, he established the Family Business Management program at the University of Nebraska and worked as National Development Manager for the Family Dynamics Program at Wells Fargo Private Bank. As a dedicated advocate for family-owned businesses, he is actively involved in writing, delivering keynote speeches, and creating programs that address various aspects of family business dynamics. He is also the author of The Family Business Whisperer and operates a consulting firm, Advising Generations.

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[Transcript]

R. Adam Smith: [Intro] Welcome to the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn. I am R. Adam Smith, creator of this audiocast series. As an entrepreneur, investor, founder, investment banker, and board leader the last 25 years, I am fortunate for my many experiences within the family firm industry.

A warm thank you to our live audience on LinkedIn today – and for those listening in the future.

A brief comment on why I created this broadcast: private companies are a passion of mine, having grown up in a family of entrepreneurs, and having engaged for two decades in deals, strategic transformations, investments, and boards, with an array of fascinating family enterprises, family firms, and family offices. I founded this series to offer a useful platform for listeners to hear from veterans, academics, and leaders in the vast family firm ecosystem. Whether you are a family business owner, building, running, or advising a family office, or just expanding your family office activities, I hope these conversations are useful and enlightening. And now, it is time to turn [01:00] our attention to our accomplished guest on today’s episode.

I'm very pleased today to host David Specht here with me. Dave, it's great to have you today on the audiocast.

Dave Specht: Thanks for the invite. I appreciate it.

R. Adam Smith: Definitely. Really enjoyed getting to know you and learning more about Drucker School and the family business platform and initiative you've been building for several years now. I'm gonna talk a bit about you briefly here and then we'll turn it over to conversation with you.

So, David is recognized as one of the world's leading experts in family business dynamics and wealth preservation. He is the director of the Drucker School Global Family Business Institute. There he plays a pivotal role in shaping the futures of prominent business owners, families, and enterprises globally. His work is distinguished by the commitment to preserving family relationships and enhancing the sustainability of these businesses over generations.

Previously, Dave was at the Private Bank at Wells Fargo where he also led the Family Dynamics Team and advised many generations there, [02:00] and built meaningful expertise navigating complex family challenges, working on leadership transitions, governance, and wealth continuity strategies.

David is also an accomplished author known for his book, The Family Business Whisperer, which serves as a vital critical research mechanism and tool for family businesses to transform their organizations and for their advisors. And his insights are frequently sought after with hundreds of international conferences and academic settings. He often lectures on non-financial aspects of family business management in these environments.

Under his leadership, the Drucker School Global Family Institute has launched numerous groundbreaking initiatives, including partnerships with major financial institutions. He also collaborates with the James E. Hughes Jr. Foundation on academic programs in the space. So, Dave has a lot to offer to the community, to both family offices and family firms. It's great to have you today.

Tell us about [03:00] your Drucker School program, David, and the Institute. Love to hear more about that and what inspired you to get involved in advising generations.

Dave Specht: Sure. Again, I appreciate the invite and the opportunity to be on and be with my peers here.

So, the Drucker School is really dedicated to becoming the global meeting place for the world's most influential business-owning families. And we have a two-pronged approach. One is creating programs for those families themselves. We developed a certificate program for advising family enterprises because we feel like there's a multiplier effect. If you can influence the advisors in how they interact with these families, you influence hundreds and thousands of families.

We do a monthly interview series called Authors @ Drucker. I'm excited about the opportunity to really preserve families and perpetuate businesses. And really, how it happens is through [04:00] courageous conversations and by facilitating interactions, not only with professionals and the families in business but mostly between the peers. There's tons of learning that happens in these peer situations. So, we're excited to be able to bring these programs to the world.

A little backstory on getting into this space. It was a long time ago. I was finishing up my graduate degree in finance and tax planning. I'll be honest, it was a little too much finance and too much tax for me. I didn't love it, but I needed an elective to finish, and that elective turned out to be Family Business Management. It blended the financial and the tax with all the non-financial challenges and complexities and really, it was at that moment that I realized this will never be boring. And so, that set me off on this path of working with business-owning families. And really, I focus on the non-financial challenges that they face.

R. Adam Smith: [05:00] Wonderful. I will talk more about you again. Seems like the Drucker School is quite a unique organization.

We've had some experts from different top academic programs in the world, as you know, here on the audiocast, with Christina Wing from Harvard, and Alfredo de Massis from Unibz, and also Massimo Bau; some great people and colleagues of yours.

I see the Drucker School Global Family Business Institute was launched in 2018. There was a gap that Peter Drucker had identified back in the education focusing on these family-run enterprises. And then you came on a couple years later in May of 2021 to really take the ball and roll forward.

Tell us a bit about Peter Drucker and also about the Drucker School. I see the Drucker School was founded in 1971 and has over 5,000 alumni now and quite a robust, growing organization.

Dave Specht: [06:00] The Drucker School is a small business school and a place where we're really focused on the people side of business and amazing faculty. I did not come from academia, I'm more of a practitioner. Like you said earlier, I was at Wells Fargo Bank for five years but really was drawn to the Drucker School because of Peter Drucker and the work that he did. His name and his influence and the principles that he taught are timeless. And so, I found the opportunity to integrate some of the teachings of Peter Drucker with best thoughts around multi-generational family companies.

One of my favorite Peter Drucker learnings is around systematic abandonment. And I think it's a principle that we should look into more as we're working with these family-owned businesses. And really, the principle is, he's all about innovation, but [07:00] on every strategic planning agenda, systematic abandon was there.

He basically taught that, look, we need to be looking to stop doing things that aren't working so that we can free up more space for innovation. And I think that's just one example of one of the kind of “Druckerisms” that we try to incorporate in some of the programming that we develop.

R. Adam Smith: That's great. On this interview series, we've talked a great deal about legacy and the definition and purpose and sustainability of legacy. I'd like to talk a bit about your book, The Family Business Whisperer, where you do focus on succession planning. And also, if you could talk about your views on succession planning and also a bit about the other side of the monetization of these family businesses in the sense that last week I had a global live interview with Tom Deans, who's a quite remarkable author, and [08:00] his viewpoint of succession is also tied to the importance of having ongoing communication, a transparency of transactions; it’s that those transactions with these family firms, these family companies, which can be quite large—in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars—should be laid out in a clear path within the family.

So, the succession is often put up at more of a governance level and requires the next generation to either buy the family business with the family funds or to pass. And that creates, often, some really powerful transparency even though it's a tricky element to pull off.

Can you talk about the different elements of succession planning, please?

Dave Specht: Absolutely. Succession is tricky because oftentimes we're thinking of succession as a tax challenge or a tax puzzle or a [09:00] legal puzzle to be solved. And what happens is, these wonderful families end up with very complex structures that then they're asked to live within, and many of them struggle to live within those plans.

And so, one of the things I'm encouraging is to really focus on the people side of succession first, and then allow professionals that are technical experts to translate what is wanted by that family—what's in their heart, what's in their mind, what they've articulated that their desires are for their family. So, I really feel like succession planning should be more of a translation of the story that they want to tell, and many times, we get that backwards.

I use a simple framework—I call them the five Cs—when beginning with any family, and I'll just rattle them off. The first of those Cs is contingency plans. Every family needs contingency plans for both ownership and management. And just the process of documenting that and describing [10:00] what those plans are oftentimes illustrates gaps or holes in the plans that families have.

The second one is around cash flow planning, and there are several different elements to this. The first one is, you know, does the senior generation that is wanting to step back, do they have cash flow plans in place and structures and investments outside of the operating company so that they can actually exit and not have to continually be over the shoulder of the rising generation?

Also with cash flow planning, I mean, depending on the size of the business, is there sufficient cash flow to invite a rising generation back?

When I was in Nebraska many, many years ago, I worked with farmers and ranchers, and this was a major question for them; it was just, as the cash flow of the farm or ranch, is it sufficient to invite family members back? So, contingency plans, cash flow planning.

The next one is around [11:00] compensation. This is a particularly sticky issue with family members. It's normal to have compensation conversations with non-family employees but many times, family members struggle to have those conversations between each other. And ultimately, there needs to be clarity with compensation and roles and responsibilities. And I found that when we get really clear with those, we remove some of the friction that can possibly show up.

So, contingency plans, cashflow planning, compensation planning, communication. Most families need help to navigate the conversations that have to happen so that they can put a succession plan in place. And many times, families come to me when they've either tried on their own or they've tried with other advisors, technical advisors, [12:00] and they've struggled. So, one of the keys is just helping them to communicate and to set patterns for that communication so that it isn't a one-time reveal of what the plan is, but it's an ongoing process.

And then, the last of the C's is conflict management. You know, conflict isn't bad, it just needs to be managed. It's normal for there to be differences of opinion. And so, as I'm looking at the health of a family business and the likelihood of their successful continuity, I'm always going back to these simple five C's: contingency plans for ownership and management, cash flow planning, compensation planning, communication, and conflict management. And so, it's a pretty simplistic view, but you’d be surprised by how many struggle with just those five C's.

R. Adam Smith: Just briefly on communication, what are the most effective mechanisms for communication that provide continuity and preempt the resolution, the conflict resolutions, within the larger, more complex families?

Let's say two or three [13:00] generations, and let's say there's a board and the generations are at two different opinions, what are the most effective ways for communication if you look at internal culture versus external advisors versus the board of directors or a charter? Just walk us through the most effective ways for communication to be respected and utilized. And then, maybe walk us through that into your book as well, and a bit on the teachings of the Drucker Institute.

Dave Specht: Sure, one of the most important things with communication is just setting expectations for how that communication will take place: with what frequency, will it be in person, will it be in letters, you know? So, as long as everyone has an expectation for how business performance will be communicated, is there a forum for bringing up questions, where most families struggle [14:00] is when they don't have proper expectations with regards to communication, whether it's expectations of a beneficiary or expectations of an owner or, you know, what rights do shareholders have.

So, for me, it all boils down to expectations. And with those expectations oftentimes comes the need to formalize structures. Especially as you get out into the second, third, and fourth generations, the informality of communication stops working, you're not living in the same house. There needs to be formality and expectations around with what regularity people will get updates. Are they communicated with about the possibility of an exit if anyone wants to have a liquidity event? What's the process for that?

So again, it's about continuing a regular pattern for communication, having a forum for people to ask questions so that all of those interactions can be [15:00] managed. So, I mean, again, it depends on the size of the family the types of governance structures that a family sets up. It could be that a family that's fairly small can get away with some informality. But as the family gets larger, as there are more and more non-operating shareholders, there need to be more structures around maybe family councils and how the family wants to learn together and grow together, what experiences they want to have together, to, you know, allow cousins to be in relationship with each other, not just around the family business, family assemblies, you know, bringing the family together for updates.

And so, again, it really depends on the size of the family and the complexities, but go ahead.

R. Adam Smith: It seems to me having bought and sold a bunch of companies and advising companies to buy and sell each other or work with the family office or work with the business of families, there's a lot of expectations, of course, as you said. But some of that can be psychological and some of that can be [16:00] structural. I like your thoughts on this because I don't think there's particularly a single answer. It's really more of a moving target.

But, since you cover the non-financial side, what are your views of how to manage these expectations between the emotional and psychological side versus the structural side in terms of what are the bylaws, what are the expectations, what's in the charter, what's the visibility of the ownership and shares and assets that will be handed down?

So, it just seems like continually a very tricky element, and often external advisors either on the board or bankers or lawyers can also be helpful here to break them in.

Dave Specht: So, I think the first thing is, if you're an advisor to a family enterprise, you know, you need to lead with a ton of empathy, especially towards the owner and operator. We need to assume that what they're pursuing, whether it's continuity within the family or they're looking at [17:00] selling the business, that they're not just going through a transaction. They’re about to, you know, board an emotional rollercoaster. One that, you know, is exciting because it's validating that what they created has value to someone besides them. The market validates them by one or more people wanting to buy that company. So, that's exciting for them.

But they also deal with the emotionality of, you know, how will their employees be treated? How will the community think of them if they do X with the business? The emotionality of just their own identity. What will happen to their identity if they are not leading a company that has hundreds or thousands of employees?

So, I think we spend far too little time thinking about and empathizing with the leader of that family company that's about to, you know, that's about to have a real shock [18:00] to themselves. And, you know, we do a ton of work on preparing the financials, preparing a business for sale, the legal aspects and everything else, but we spend far too little time working with the owner to help them understand just what they're going to navigate in the process. And I'll give you one example.

I was working with a business owner and they received an offer for someone to buy their company, and it was more money than they ever believed that they would have. But they didn't sell. They chose to not sell. And the reason was that this business owner was afraid that they would become irrelevant in the community. They were one of the largest businesses in this community and they had hundreds of employees, and they knew that if they sold the business that maybe people would stop asking their opinion.

So, it's really interesting to think about what encourages someone to sell a business or transition a business and what will keep people from doing so.

I think it's important to think about, you know, the desired outcomes, and to have a business owner [19:00] articulate those for you if you're an advisor to that business owner. And then also, ask them, you know, what are some of the unintended consequences of the path we're headed down? And if we can articulate those things, lay them out on the table and prepare them from a financial perspective, but also from an emotional perspective, with the process, I think we do a lot to smooth the process, whether it's through continuity from one generation to the next, or the sale of a business to a third party.

R. Adam Smith: Right. There's, I think, an undercurrent of dramatic expansion going on of the scaling of family businesses, not just themselves, but in combination with other businesses within a multi-family office environment or just a holding company or cross holdings.

I think it's really fascinating and I'm seeing this happen, validated by the facts and the data [20:00] and clients that are looking for these private partnerships and scaling often with like parties. So, this issue of expectations and unfamiliarity and the desire to build private legacy together is partly skipping the traditional capital markets in the private equity community.

Dave Specht: I totally agree. And I think family offices have such an incredible opportunity when looking to acquire family businesses because, likely, they have the insight of what it feels like to go through that transition. And many times, these family offices can be positioned as permanent capital rather than private equity. And many of the families that I work with are more interested in that permanent capital sort of concept rather than just maximizing and getting all the way out.

So again, I think there's a huge opportunity for family offices as they look to [21:00] acquire these operating companies and whether they acquire them outright or they're buying parts or pieces of them to provide liquidity for that family. Huge opportunities.

R. Adam Smith: We're seeing this data. And the conversations throughout some of our guests and friends, we hear this theme of scale and reinvesting and building private companies with certainly Alfredo de Massis in Italy. He's quite active in the scene talking about entrepreneurship and expanding these family businesses.

And we hear that as well from Richard Wolkowitz. We hear it from Monika [Nadová Kroslakova] over at the Family Business Center. We hear it from Martin Rohl. We hear it from Camden. Of course, Cresset and Simple. It's really a fascinating time in the private markets, not just private capital, but the private markets of these companies scaling together.

You mentioned a bit about legacy. I know we have people on the call from the [22:00] trust and estates and consulting side, both Nicholas Tyszka and Adam Hoffman, and of course Monika, Alexander Galambos, and Lina Chehab over at Family Business Network. There are a lot of experts that are around the ecosystem that are helping on the trust side or the planning side, as you said.

You mentioned something about identity. I think it's super important to help family offices and family businesses prepare for the sale of their business, but also look ahead into where that money is going to go, either within the family or within philanthropy.

So, I'd like you to talk a bit about that and then tie that into your master class, your generational wealth masterclass with James Hughes.

Dave Specht: Most families are completely unprepared for how they'll manage the assets after a sale. Most don't have any experience in public markets. They've been focused on what they know, and that's running a successful family company [23:00] in whatever market niche they may be in. And so, there is a huge need for them to lean on advisors that can help them navigate that new landscape.

You mentioned this generational wealth masterclass we recently recorded with Jay Hughes. It's really focused on, again, the non-financial challenges that financial success creates. So, some of the topics that we address are shared ownership. There's nothing more difficult than sharing ownership, and I think families end up in shared ownership situations because they feel like maybe wearing their parent hat, that that's the fairest thing to do. Anyways, we talk quite a bit about the pitfalls and perils of shared ownership.

We also talk about navigating financially diverse relationships. You know, oftentimes when you marry, you find your spouse and they don't come from the same socioeconomic [24:00] background, and no one's teaching us how to navigate those conversations. We spend quite a bit of time on how to do that. There's a whole section on appreciating and onboarding in-laws. They definitely don't teach that in business school.

So, we're pretty excited about this content because we feel like it fills a void, particularly at the intersection of the non-financial and the financial elements of generational wealth and success.

R. Adam Smith: That's wonderful. It's so impressive that you are working with the James E. Hughes Foundation. For those that don't know about his legacy, Mr. Hughes is one of the most respected and published authors in the family firm community. He has been a partner of Coudert Brothers and Jones Day and an active fellow of Boston think tanks. He's on numerous boards and has written about the family business ecosystem for a number of years, and he created a significant [25:00] funding event for the foundation in 2021.

It's really great to hear you’re working with him. He's a very respected author.

Dave Specht: And he is as generous and kind as he is accomplished and wise. So yeah, we love Jay. And he's on a mission to redefine wealth to well-being. And we're going to help him do that.

R. Adam Smith: Right. So, we probably should do another talk on well-being. But I presume you're talking about the overlay of the legacy and also philanthropy and also the psychological/cultural wellness of the organization, not just making money, right?

Dave Specht: Absolutely. Yeah, he talks about qualitative capitals and how the financial capital needs to be in service of those other capitals, meaning, you know, human capital, the development of the people and there own well-being and intellectual. Are we creating [26:00] learning families? Are we creating learning systems within our families? Spiritual capital, is there a connection around a greater purpose than just our individual desire? So, it's a pretty exciting time to be in the field for sure.

R. Adam Smith: Yeah. Back to supporting family businesses, we have a question from Monika Nadová Kroslakova who's the founder of the family business center over in Slovakia. So, she asked you, “What are some activities that you're preparing to support the family businesses in the program?” And just throw out maybe one of your greatest challenges you've seen.

Dave Specht: Well, this Friday I'll head to Uganda. We're in a partnership with Musizi Sustainable Business Institute. We'll spend two days with a group of advisors there, and then we'll spend two more days with business-owning families.

So, what we're most interested in at the Drucker School is developing partnerships where we can [27:00] take the content that we've created and take it all over the world. And so, we're really excited about that. We're working on partnerships in Dubai, we have one that's beginning in South America—I lived in Uruguay for a couple of years. So, you know, the opportunity to develop great content and see it implemented and utilized across cultures is really rewarding. So, that's a big part of what we're focused on.

R. Adam Smith: That's wonderful. Well, Monika, I hope things in Slovakia settle down today. Thank you for your question, and we'll be seeing you soon in the event that we're doing in September, so that's great.

Also, back to your point about Uruguay. In case no one is familiar with Uruguay, it has one of the best foods in the world, which I call Dulce Leche. I'm not sure it's actually a food, but I think it's quite amazing.

Dave Specht: If you eat it as a food, yeah, it's trouble.

R. Adam Smith: It's trouble.

Dave Specht: It's trouble. Alfajores, Dulce de Leche, absolutely. 

R. Adam Smith: They're hard to find.

Dave Specht: [28:00] They are, they are.

R. Adam Smith: So, let's tie that scarcity to your experiences. Like, what do you find that are the toughest pillars of excellence that should be learned and pursued and integrated within family businesses? What are the hardest things to pull off within these organizations?

Dave Specht: So, one of the main challenges families face is innovation, really, and finding the proper balance between honoring what's worked for the family over generations and leaning into innovation and trying new things. It's a real struggle, honestly, because many families have been successful.

One example is a trucking company that I'm working with. They've been successful for three generations in the trucking business. And if they do things the exact same way that grandfather did them, they're going to be in real trouble. And so, finding the proper balance of continuing to do what you do well and do what the market knows you for, [29:00] but allocating not only financial resources but attention to innovation and trying new things. I really think that a real key to continuity is not staying the same but evolving and innovating into the future. It's definitely something that families need to lean into.

R. Adam Smith: And that's where the human capital element comes into play, bringing in intellectual capital externally—it could be an accounting firm, could be a top law firm, could be an investment banker, also advisors externally—to provide fresh viewpoints and best practices into the board level, or just visitors to the board.

I don't personally advise family businesses on their organizational structure or the administrative matters, so I'm often curious; what are the inflection points, or what are the openings to bring external input [30:00] and expertise into a tightly-held family business? Where is a safe place and effective place to bring in that expertise internally into these closely-held companies?

Dave Specht: Yeah, that's a great question. The evolution of a family business requires outside expertise at some point. They realize that “Hey, we need to have some eyes from the outside really challenging us along the way.” The first step is really developing an advisory board, a non-fiduciary advisory board. And the reason families lean into this first is because they don't want to give up control, but they see the need for outsiders to be able to really kind of push on their ideas, question them, challenge them without giving them any votes, you know? Without giving up any control.

And then, as it moves forward, some families will make the shift and actually have non-family executives or non-family participants on the actual board of directors. That's typically not the first step though. Most families are [31:00] heading towards kind of the advisory board, the non-fiduciary advisory board, treating it with the seriousness of the board of directors, but not giving up decision-making control or votes and things like that.

So, that's what I'm seeing. And as an advisor, I think if you can help families to understand, you know, what the best practices are around how do you attract the right people to those advisory boards, what size, should you have term limits or not, how do you prepare for advisory board meetings, are you going to treat them the same as in terms of transparency as you would with the board of directors.

So oftentimes, families need help with developing those structures and being able to attract the right advisors to that board so it's not just their friends.

R. Adam Smith: Right, exactly. The fresh thinking and the lack of conflicts or perceived conflicts. So, just to wrap up on a couple of comments, I definitely recommend you follow Dave on LinkedIn. You can reach him there. [32:00] He is running the institute at the Drucker Business School as well. You can follow the Drucker Institute and his Authors @ Drucker interview series.

Also, you'll see he has an ongoing media and content effort going on with Advising Family Enterprises and brings that forward from his former company, Advising Generations, which is wonderful. Dave's also super busy in the community, has six children—I admire that—also likes Dulce Leche as I do, which is great. And, you know, partnering with such a selfless legend as James E. Hughes Jr. is really wonderful. Really admire that.

I have one more question on LinkedIn. We'll go back over to Adam. It's great to see some friends here. Ruby [Hugueny], again, thank you for coming in from France. Always jealous of what castle you're renovating and building for your own clients. That's always admirable.

Dr. Paula [Fellingham] recently talked to her about women in business. We talked about this concept of the importance of balance and [33:00] governance and culture of women in business this last month with Karen Costa who runs the family business at RSM, which is a very large platform. We dedicated that episode to Tony Wood who recently passed away. And some other friends in the business.

So, we'll have Adam Hoffman come up here. He's an expert in trust and estates in Canada working with family businesses. Adam, happy to have your question here today.

Adam Hoffman: Dave, it's great to see you and listen to you. Enjoyed it immensely. Your comment about the advisory board really caught my attention as the baby step and just was interested in your comments about the balance of the advisory board being non-fiduciary but being an important step and doing it with discipline, and just your general comments about doing advisory boards well. Thank you.

Dave Specht: Thanks, Adam. I mean, again, [34:00] the main point is most families aren't willing to take the step of giving up any control. And the more formal of an advisory board we can set up, it really will feel like a board of directors. The only thing is, they're not giving up any votes. So, one of the best advisory boards I've ever seen is a family business in the Midwest here in the United States called Duncan Aviation. They're the largest aviation maintenance company in the world. And they've done an incredible job of attracting retired executives that interact, or interested, with different parts or pieces of their business.

And they treat it with such discipline. They share, completely transparently, their financials. And maybe, the most important thing that they do is that when the advisory board members give them feedback or give them ideas or things that they should follow up on, they are very serious about [35:00] following through on all of those things, and it shows because they attract the top people in their industry.

And so, I think if you approach the advisory board with a level of discipline and seriousness, it can be every bit as impactful as having a non-family member on a board of directors. 

R. Adam Smith: Yeah, that's a good point. I've had the luxury, with a lot of hard work, of being on 10 advisory boards going back to 2002. Several of those had family offices in them as LPs or GPs Including Quilvest, which is a very large multi-family office. Tom Lee himself was involved as an investor at some point. We had some very interesting dynamics and the learning was quite substantial on both the board and the advisory boards. But the advisory board is really powerful because it doesn't have that fiduciary and voting mechanism. It frees up the tension and the burden—

Dave Specht: There’s not as much posturing.

R. Adam Smith: Posturing. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, well, it's great to talk to you today. Really enjoyed everything that we've [36:00] talked about. There's a lot under the cover at Drucker going on and also in the initiatives that you've been taking. I admire that. I’ve recommended to speak to you.

Dave Specht: Thank you.

R. Adam Smith: And have you on the show today. I look forward to working more with you in the future. I encourage everybody to reach out to Dave and follow his material and teachings and look up the masterclass as well. Yeah, really great to have you today, Dave.

Dave Specht: Thank you so much.

R. Adam Smith: I'd like to thank our Family Business Audiocast today, and of course our esteemed guest as well. This is R. Adam Smith signing off. Stay tuned for the next episode of the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn.

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