Family Business Audiocast | Episode 18 | Elizabeth Bagger | Avanti Family Business Advisory & Lina Chehab | FBN Levant

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About Our Guests:

Elizabeth Bagger is a prominent family business advisor and governance expert, recognized on a global scale for her extensive experience in succession planning and governance. She has played a significant role in the UK Institute for Family Business, where she helped develop essential governance principles tailored for privately-owned companies. Additionally, she is actively involved in her own family business, AVS Danmark, and operates her consulting firm, Avanti, specializing in family business dynamics. Her influence extends beyond consulting; she is a sought-after speaker and writer, contributing to major publications while leveraging her rich academic and practical background in family business advising.

Lina Chehab is a prominent figure in the realm of family business management. She serves as the manager and leader of FBN Levant, a branch of one of the world’s largest family business networks, and has notable certifications from the National Center for Entrepreneurial Development (NCEDD) and the Family Firm Institute, highlighting her extensive knowledge and expertise in the field. With a robust background that encompasses wealth management, research, and family governance, Lina has become a trusted advisor for various family enterprises and family offices worldwide.

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[Transcript]

R. Adam Smith: [Intro] Welcome to the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn. I am R. Adam Smith, creator of this audiocast series. As an entrepreneur, investor, founder, investment banker, and board leader the last 25 years, I am fortunate for my many experiences within the family firm industry.

A warm thank you to our live audience on LinkedIn today – and for those listening in the future.

A brief comment on why I created this broadcast: private companies are a passion of mine, having grown up in a family of entrepreneurs, and having engaged for two decades in deals, strategic transformations, investments, and boards, with an array of fascinating family enterprises, family firms, and family offices. I founded this series to offer a useful platform for listeners to hear from veterans, academics, and leaders in the vast family firm ecosystem. Whether you are a family business owner, building, running, or advising a family office, or just expanding your family office activities, I hope these conversations are [01:00] useful and enlightening. And now, it is time to turn our attention to our accomplished guests on today’s episode.

I'm very pleased to host Elizabeth Bagger and Lina Chehab today. Welcome.

Lina, great to see you here on your first time. How are you doing today? Where are you?

Lina Chehab: Hello. How are you? Thank you for hosting. I'm based in Switzerland currently. I'm based in Switzerland, and I'm really pleased to be here on this webcast.

R. Adam Smith: Wonderful. Liz, where are you today? California? Somewhere in the US, I think.

Elizabeth Bagger: Hi. Good morning, everyone. Thank you, Adam, for hosting us. I am joining you from Chicago.

R. Adam Smith: Okay. All the way from Europe. It's good to have you here.

Old friends, I’m gonna brag about you briefly here. So, a few words on Elizabeth. She is a globally recognized family business advisor, consultant, and governance expert with a wealth of experience in facilitating succession planning and governance and also played a crucial role previously in the [02:00] UK in the Institute for Family Business, where she contributed to the development of governance principles for privately-owned companies.

Her contributions extend to speaking globally and writing for major publications and are underpinned by her extensive academic and practical background in family business advising. She also is part of her family business, AVS Danmark, and runs her own family consulting company called Avanti.

Lina Chehab, originally from Lebanon, is now in Switzerland. She is the manager and the leader of FBN Levant, which is a division of one of the largest family business networks in the world, and she combines her extensive experience in wealth management, research, and family governance and succession planning to lead and advise globally various family enterprises and family offices.

Lina has notable certifications in education from NCEDD and the Family Firm Institute as well, and her expertise is certainly sought, as is Liz’s, by the family business community. I'm very happy to have you here today. [03:00] We're gonna jump into a conversation. We'll start with you, Lina.

So, let's talk about your role in the family business network, Levant, and your involvement in your own family's business, and what challenges do family businesses face, particularly in the Middle East region, when trying to build, and grow, and establish effective governance structures?

Lina Chehab: In my views, the major challenges encountered for family businesses in Lebanon and the region during the process of establishing effective governance structures are very much similar to most challenges faced by family businesses in the world, including first, like the complexity in managing the family dynamics and the succession planning processes, balancing family relationships with business decisions, and deciding on a fair process and a transparent succession plan that considers both merit and family ties.

Second point, the lack of effective and transparent communication between family members [04:00] of the same generation and across the senior and the next generation.

Third point, the absence of conflict resolution mechanisms. Family businesses are subject to facing unique interpersonal challenges. Establishing effective mechanisms for conflict resolution within the family and the business, which are essential to prevent disputes from negatively impacting the family and the business.

Fourth, the lack of awareness and understanding of the importance of governance for the perennity of family businesses. Family business programs can be helpful for family members to better understand the benefits of implementing effective governance.

Fifth point, the lack of professionalization of some family businesses struggling to transition from informal structures to more formal and professionalized governance. This may involve [05:00] implementing policies, procedures, and professional management practices.

And, last but not least, the political and economic instability, often leading family businesses to prioritize dealing with these uncertainties and losing focus on putting in place governance structures to negate these challenges.

To summarize, addressing these challenges requires a strategic and holistic approach that takes into account the unique aspects of family businesses — implementing professional governance structures, fostering open communication, and adapting to changing business environments are key factors to success.

R. Adam Smith: Thank you for that. Liz, I'd like you to comment on that. Also, talk a bit about going back after you were in Copenhagen, you started working with various family business platforms, and then ultimately being part of [06:00] your own family business at AVS. Walk us through that a bit and what type of a perspective you gained in working in your own family business, and then we'll talk later about Avante and the market as a whole.

Elizabeth Bagger: Great. Thank you, Adam. So, firstly, I'm unpacking a bit of what Lina said. I think I would like to just really echo the things around family dynamics and conflict. I think those are — it's a human component of family business that makes it so infinitely challenging. And we're probably sometimes only just scratching the surface of that.

But, I think those are some of the challenges that I've seen in my work, in my own family, working with other family businesses around the world. And, you know, it's given me a unique perspective coming from a family business. So, I could relate to some of the familial issues around, you know, how do you agree with the other generation, other generations, you know, when you don't see eye to eye? [07:00] Can you have a discussion about it? Do you end up arguing about it? And so on. But, I think, for me, what was really lucky was that I always felt that somehow we managed to put the well-being of the business ahead of any kind of disagreements we might have.

I think what I've also learned from my own family business and working with others is that we don't always have the conversations that we most need to have. It doesn't necessarily come from an unwillingness to do it, but sometimes we might not be aware of what we most need to talk about and that's why having somebody by your side who can help you unpack those issues that are the most important to talk about can be enormously helpful. And I've certainly seen that many times, you know, either through sheer ignorance of what really needs to be talked about for the sake of the future, or [08:00] from the perspective of, oh, nobody wants to rock the boat, nobody wants to be the person to bring up that contentious issue, and so forth.

So, I think my perspective from the different lenses I've looked at family businesses through is communication and human relations, what drive everything. And those are the things that we really, really, really need to focus on in order to be able to have meaningful conversations about the business, innovation, legacy, and all those wonderful things. We do need to have established serious communication forums, channels, and so forth, and we do need to really become aware of what are the conversations that we most need to have.

R. Adam Smith: That's great. Thank you.

Now Lina, back to you. You spent time in wealth management in the private banking at Union de Bonc-Privet and also ABN Amro , and also you have [09:00] significant education experience at INSEAD, and I noticed you had a guest with my friend Martin Roll recently who just took over the family business podcast at NCED. So that's fun. I'll give him a plug because he's really a good guy.

Tell us about your experiences working with families in the private banking context and how that relates to the market today and what you think, let's say, the single-family officers are looking for from private advisors.

Lina Chehab: Well, through my work as a private banker and a wealth manager, I was able to build my confidence in working with family business leaders to establish a trust-based relationship with them and their families while respecting their confidentiality. And these experiences have played a major role in my approach to advising family businesses. And then I used the research approach to learn about the stories and the history of the family businesses that I advise. I also ensure building [10:00] trust with the family members through active listening, respect, and assuring them of the confidentiality of their information.

So, that's how I try to navigate around the family while using my experience. And you know, the family dynamics are very unique to each family. Each family has its own complexities. So it's the best — it’s always understanding each family, the uniqueness of each family, and to have a unique approach to advising that family. We cannot advise all families in the same way. We need to find out what works best for each family.

R. Adam Smith: Right. Liz, tell us about Avanti, and what primary focus areas did you bring into your own consulting practice, and where did you come up with those priorities? What do you do there? What's working for you with the family offices around the world as your clients?

Elizabeth Bagger: [11:00] Thank you. Very good question. So, my focus in my consulting practice is around the family dynamics, and that came from observing a number of families in my previous role who had all the governance structures and plays, who’d done all the work to get to that point, and seeing that things were still not working for them. And I used to ponder what was getting in the way and it was always family dynamics in some way, shape, or form. It was a lack of trust, it was resentment, it was jealousy, it was maybe incorrect assumptions, but there was always this human component that got in the way of governance structures operating as effectively as they could or operating at all actually.

And I would say I am still learning about family dynamics every single day because it is just infinitely complex how we get on with our family members. And when you sort of [12:00] stir in a bit of wealth and power, those dynamics can, at times, become explosive. I don't say that they always do, but there will always be a number of challenges because every individual in the system will come to the table with their own unique perspectives, needs, wants, desires, and also, let's not forget, the need to be heard and seen and valued.

R. Adam Smith: Or you could just be indifferent and give it away to the gardener and be done with it.

Elizabeth Bagger: You definitely could. Most people choose not to do that. They choose to fight the good fight because, at the end of the day, they also have a passion for what they do. And most of the successful family businesses have an incredibly strong purpose, not just as a business, but also as a family, and a desire to have an impact on the wider world.

R. Adam Smith: I talked about legacy extensively with Christina Wing before and also with Martin Roll and [13:00] Alfredo De Massis, and then also talked about the entrepreneurship with Professor Matt Hughes from FamilyBusiness.org and Leicester University. And so I'm curious about both of your views, both of you, on this topic of driving toward the legacy and leveraging not just the governance, but also the entrepreneurship, knowing that there are limitations on both the desire and the ability for family companies to infuse entrepreneurship and continue to learn towards improving the organization as opposed to just sitting on the wealth or sitting on the company more comfortably.

How do you connect the dots between, I guess, protecting a legacy and improving the family business as an organization?

Lina Chehab: Well, in my view, the business has to grow in line with the family because the family grows, keeps growing, and if the business does not grow in line with the family, then it cannot service the family anymore. [14:00] So basically, we need to come up with new ways and bring up the new generation to be entrepreneurial. We need to educate them, we need to train them, we need to have these educational programs to adapt to the growth of the family. Several family businesses have realized that challenge and they have instilled within their system a system where they encourage entrepreneurship amongst the young generation where they come up with new ideas that could be incorporated within the family business.

So, definitely continuous learning, encouraging the next generation, empowering them, giving them leadership positions, inspiring them, motivating them, doing everything that can grow the business in line with the family.

R. Adam Smith: [15:00] Liz, how about you?

Elizabeth Bagger: I'll definitely echo what Lina just said, and then I'll add that I think that intersection of celebrating heritage and innovation, being able to do both at the same time, is an absolute crucial point for family businesses. It is their superpower, in my view, but it is also something that can be very hard to accomplish, and the intergenerational dialogue is absolutely key here. You have to be able to hear what each generation is saying. You have to be able to combine the wisdom and the knowledge of the older generation with the appetite and the curiosity and the knowledge of the younger generations, and that, I think, is where you are able to tap into both.

Now, that isn't always easily done. There might be a lot of fear in the older generation. There might be a lot of frustration in the younger generation. So, [16:00] one of the things I would say to people is, get really curious about the other generation. Start to ask questions about what life is like for them, what makes them tick, what is it that they really wanted to achieve or now want to achieve. And I think having those deeper conversations, you can start to move things forward. You have to get really practical about it sometimes because, you know, people just hold on to things or they get frustrated if they don't see results immediately. So, I think it's just absolutely key to be willing to explore. And it does take some willingness on everyone's part. And sometimes the older generation does have to go first, in my view, in order to make this happen.

R. Adam Smith: Right, maybe can you bridge the willingness of family offices that are sitting on significant wealth to use governance as a tool for learning, not just governance — you worked a lot on governance — and the family is due for family business and had a working group there and we also see the recent report from the [17:00] Family Business United that both of you mentioned recently on the posts that came out this year.

And I think there's a lot of conversation about governance. I've been on 10 boards of directors, and governance is obviously really important from a framework of leadership and control. But, to build a family office, or to build a multifamily office, or to sustain the legacy and create scale, I think also that governance can be an area for education.

Can both of you talk about that element of learning as well, and the different layers of governance that can be used for continuing knowledge and education to grow?

Lina Chehab: Well, in my views, definitely. I mean, governance, we talk about two different structures. We talk about the corporate governance and the family governance and they go line in line. I mean, they have to go together, side by side. We cannot do with one without the other. And then we have to have a system to engage the next generation. So basically, if we have a family office, family members are not working, there's no — you don't have an operational business. Well, you have two options. [18:00] Sometimes there is an operational business, and sometimes there isn't anymore an operational business. How to find a way to engage family members when there isn't an operational business?

Definitely having a family council is very helpful, creating this education, creating the awareness, engaging the members, coming up with new ideas. Having fun together is important as a family because when we are able to have fun together, we are able to continue together. We need to have our values that would unite the family. Keep work on our values all the time, because this is what keeps us. I mean, longevity of most family businesses is defined by their values. So basically, work a lot on that.

And then, we have to have clear roles and responsibilities, have defined the succession planning processes, professionalize the management. We should have the decision-making processes [19:00] in place and the conflict management process in case of conflict, both on the corporate and on family side, having transparent communication between the family members and in the business. And then the stewardship and values, both in the family and in the business talking about ethical behavior, social responsibility, long-term sustainability, committing to family values and legacy, and being able to adapt to change.

Now, with this changing environment with, like AI now, we have a lot of new challenges. We should be able to be quite flexible, agile, to be able to adapt to the new challenges of the new business environments.

R. Adam Smith: [20:00] Thank you. Maybe Liz, continue that onto the family constitution and charter a little more technically. What are constitutions and charters, and how useful are they, and are they really understood by the next-gen? Are they really essential and are they really understood by the next-gens?

Elizabeth Bagger: Great questions, thank you. So, first of all, a family charter, a family constitution, a family agreement, whatever a family chooses to call that document, it's a set of guidelines for how they're in business together and how they relate to their business. So, you will have a number of things included in such a document like values, which Lina spoke about, like ownership issues, like how do you transfer ownership to the next generation typically, also perhaps something around what the requirements are for the owners.

You will talk about employment policies for the family, you might talk about education, you might talk about the next generation in general and how you want to engage them in the family. So, it is a document [21:00] that helps you steer your relationship with the business and with each other. And I think it has enormous potential if it is a document that has been co-created by the family and that they have looked at and worked on their family dynamics throughout the process or before they start the process, because the last thing you want is to end up with a document that is very aspirational and looks very pretty on paper, but nobody's actually going to live it because things are getting in the way. So, I think it has potential to be enormously helpful. I think it has potential to cause frustration. The next generation, if they're young, obviously they won't really relate to such a document until they're older perhaps, but I think having a next-generation perspective on things can also be really valuable.

And a constitution should be a live document. So, you will be updating it [22:00] as you go and as the family changes. You will be revisiting it to see is this still real for us? That's the idea. The conversations that you have will be just as important as the document itself, but keeping it alive and lived is by far the most critical points in developing governance, but I think alongside that you really, really do need to align your family dynamics, you need to make sure that you can have the conversations you need to have during the process of developing it.

R. Adam Smith: Okay, good. Let's move on to the context of leadership in the world today, particularly as both women. We know that a lot of the wealth that's been created over the years has been primarily male-dominated, but many of these [23:00] owners are also married and they have children. And, in other industries like venture capital, we have a real glass ceiling for women in venture capital receiving about two or three percent of total capital in the US in venture and in the S&P. We have women at six percent of CEOs, or so, in the S&P.

So, I'm going to invite my friend Susan to talk about that and just ask a question given her capacity as a woman founder and family office head.

Susan Lindeque: Liz, hi, and Lina. Thank you so much. This is really interesting. I'm very interested to understand how do you see women that will come into the next generation, that will take a more active role in terms of wealth generation, passing that on from the current generation on to women and, I believe, the next generation women on to the next generation kids, [24:00] and how that dynamics is kind of evolving over the next decade or two decades. Thank you.

Lina Chehab: Yes. So, basically, in my views, I mean definitely the challenges are still there. There are many challenges for women. We could see more and more women holding senior management positions in their family businesses more and more, much more than before. But still, a lot of them, I hear from a lot of them, even CEOs, they say that they really do not have the courage to stand up sometimes, even though they’re very powerful, they hold powerful positions and they're very intelligent. But they feel quite intimidated. And this is what — it's not only in Lebanon, they've inherited with other women. They didn't want to stand up and talk, and now we need like a whole system that would empower these women, working on this, empowering them and giving them the floor to talk, [25:00] giving them the opportunity. Like, as you mentioned, Adam, like in VC capital, in venture capital, in private equity firms. Very few women get funding. Very few.

So, this has to be — we need to work side by side with men. We cannot do it all alone. Women cannot do it alone. It has to be a collaboration, empowerment, giving them the floor, listening to them, giving them the opportunity. We have more and more women who are inheriting and who are inheriting major wealth and holding senior management positions, whether CEOs or chairwomen of the boards, chairpersons. So, definitely it is an ongoing work, ongoing struggle, but for me it keeps growing and, I mean, there's always — we see solutions for that as long as we work on it together.

Elizabeth Bagger: [26:00] That's a great question. Thank you, Susan, and I think Lina's points are very well made, so I will just add two things here.

So, I did some research with three colleagues a couple of years ago, about four years ago now. We interviewed a number of women family business leaders about their journey into leadership, and one of the fascinating things that we learned was there was so many different experiences. Some people felt treated very differently to their brothers, others did not. There were people who had very supportive parents, people who didn't, and so on. But one thing was very common to all of the women and that was that the journey into leadership was not straightforward, it was rarely planned, and they often ended up in the leadership role in their family business a little bit by accident. And I think what we can do to help women is to help plan things more so that they have an experience of that kind of nurturing that perhaps their male cousins and brothers have had [27:00] for a bit longer.

And the other thing is, what most of the women spoke about was that they found networking with other women in similar situations incredibly helpful. So, peer support is something that we can definitely do more to foster and make accessible to all female leaders.

R. Adam Smith: That's wonderful. Thank you. Let's have one more question. We're going to speak with my friend John Williams who is in venture capital and also in the government in Canada and Alberta and very involved in family-owned businesses. So, he'd like to discuss the comparisons of the Canadian family office and family business ecosystem with your views on the world.

John Williams: Good morning, Adam, and to your guests. It's been a pleasure listening so far.

A question about Canadian family offices is, I find traditionally Canadians seem to focus on [28:00] Canadian opportunities. And right now, with the status of our economy in Canada and perhaps related to the political climate and so on, I think it's more important they look outside of the boundaries of Canada and become better known on the global stage. We have, traditionally, a very philanthropic country and the people are very, very involved in philanthropy and the family office business is booming, but I think it's important to look outside of our borders and see what we can do to become better known on the global stage and be more involved.

Is there any thoughts on that? And what we can do as group family offices in Canada to improve our impact on the global platform?

Elizabeth Bagger: I'm happy to go first. Thank you for the question. I think one of the [29:00] most rewarding things that I see a lot of family businesses and family offices doing is to get involved with other families in other countries. So obviously, Lina represents one chapter of a global network and I represented one chapter of a global network some years ago, and seeing families getting involved with each other in that way, I think, is enormously helpful. It opens everybody's eyes to what's possible, what other family businesses experience, not just in other countries but inside other family business cultures.

So, that kind of international networking is incredibly powerful from what I can see and so that would be my sort of key recommendation.

Lina Chehab: Well, now there is a plan for family business offices to come together and co-invest together on investments where they have positive impact on sustainable investments. [30:00] So there, where they come together for that impact, so we could see that coming forward. So, that is a way for family businesses — Canadian family businesses — to start collaborating with other family offices, especially on impact. And this is the most hot topic now currently everybody talks about.

R. Adam Smith: True. Thank you, John. I think Canada is such a large country and it's sometimes underappreciated in terms of its scale and the differences of cultural range and economic range, and also having a very strong European presence and also significant industry. So, I'm glad you you brought up Canada for your Canadian brothers and sisters.

Omar, we’ll have you come in and ask a quick question, then I'll wrap things up. So, over to you, Omar.

Omar Youssef: Thank you so much for the opportunity. I just want to ask today, as a service provider to family businesses, [31:00] what do you think are the most crucial and most wanted services today that family businesses need? Thank you.

Lina Chehab: For me, I mean currently definitely there's a huge need for governance most. I mean, to have that governance structured maybe as a service, that's a major service to start. Having that structure, to have a proper succession planning procedures, and then to be able to adapt to new markets, to new innovations, business innovations. So, working on all that together, that is what everybody, or most family businesses, look at currently.

Elizabeth Bagger: It's a great question. It's also a very big question, all depending on what you do. And, obviously, family businesses look for services and support in many areas, some related to the family, others related to the business. But, I think if I look back on my years of family business, one of the things that family businesses most look for in their advisors, no matter who they are, is to feel understood. [32:00] You know, show us that you understand us as family-owned businesses and what's important to us, was advice that I heard family businesses give to service providers many times.

R. Adam Smith: Great, those are some really great questions. Usually, we just have time for one guest question, so that was exciting.

Let's wrap up maybe a bit of inspiration. Liz, and then Lina, maybe if you could think about a family company that you are inspired by around the world and a bit on that company and why. That would be great.

Elizabeth Bagger: There are so many, but I feel like picking a Danish company today and that would be the Lego Group. I think that what they have done as a company is very impressive. I also think some of the turnarounds that they've done are [33:00] incredibly impressive and their commitment to play through their foundation is aspirational. So, I would want to highlight them and I encourage everybody to check out their story.

Thank you very much.

Lina Chehab: I totally agree with you, Elizabeth. That's one of my favorite companies, Lego. But still, for me, another company that really inspired me — it was the story of that company — it's an Italian company, Ferragamo. The story — what inspired me about it is that, I mean, definitely the founder was a creative, a designer, and all that, but what inspired me most about it was when he passed away it was his wife who was never in the business. She took the business globally, and she learned every aspect of the business and was able to take it globally. So, there is always an opportunity. When she had that opportunity, [34:00] she grabbed it, she worked on herself. And for me, I visited that family. I heard it from the grandchildren. I even got the chance to meet her in person a week before she passed away. So, for me, that was really quite impressive. That's a story I will never forget that really inspires me. And I hope it can inspire a lot of women that definitely when there is a will, there's a way. There's always a way. Always believe in yourself, and you can make it.

Thank you.

R. Adam Smith: That's inspiring. I agree with both of you having used Legos with my children to have play dates and enjoy building things, it's easy to lose track of the scale of these family businesses, which apparently are over 80% of global GDP, not just the family offices, the family business, which is why I also wanted to create this audiocast series around family business because family offices are really a subset [35:00] of family businesses and not vice versa. There's been some interesting conversation around that dichotomy by, I think, a Denton's gentlemen who runs their family business. It’s been great to have all these guests on our show to talk about the overlaps and the differences between a family business and a family enterprise and a family office.

Since you mentioned the Ferragamos, I just wanted to say that if anyone has a bit of time and money and desire to visit the Ferragamo Winery, they have a beautiful town called Il Borro, which is in the middle of Tuscany. I had the luxury of visiting and I had a tour and I spent time with Salvatore Ferragamo who runs Il Borro and also the vineyards which interestingly was bought by a duke previously. It's a small little town and that land also was owned by the Medicis, which was the dynastic family of the Italian Renaissance.

That's a fantastic place and he's a super nice guy by the way. So, I'll wrap up with that little bit of information.

I'd like to thank all of our [36:00] family business audicast today, the attendees, and our esteemed guests, Elizabeth Bagger and Lina Chehab. It was great to have you guys here today.

Lina Chehab: Thank you, Adam, for hosting. Thank you, Elizabeth, for sharing this discussion with me. And thank you for all the guests who were there listening for us. Thank you very much.

Elizabeth Bagger: Absolutely, I echo that. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Lina. And a big thank you to the audience for being here and the questions that we received.

R. Adam Smith: It was wonderful. I agree.

Okay, this is R. Adam Smith signing off. Stay tuned for the next episode of the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn.

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