Family Business Audiocast | Episode 29 | Kirby Rosplock, PhD | Tamarind Partners
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About Our Guest:
Kirby Rosplock, PhD is a leading global advisor specializing in family office research, strategy, and education, helping families and institutions establish and manage their wealth. She founded Tamarind Partners, a top family office consultancy recognized for its expertise, and Tamarind Learning, an online platform dedicated to family wealth education. Kirby's extensive experience, stemming from her own family's entrepreneurial background and various roles within family enterprises, has made her a trusted innovator and educator in the field. Her contributions as an author and speaker, along with numerous awards, including the Family Wealth Industry Thought Leadership Award, solidify her as a leading voice in family office management.
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[Transcript]
R. Adam Smith: [Intro] Welcome to the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn. I am R. Adam Smith, creator of this audiocast series. As an entrepreneur, investor, founder, investment banker, and board leader the last 25 years, I am fortunate for my many experiences within the family firm industry.
A warm thank you to our live audience on LinkedIn today – and for those listening in the future.
A brief comment on why I created this broadcast: private companies are a passion of mine, having grown up in a family of entrepreneurs, and having engaged for two decades in deals, strategic transformations, investments, and boards, with an array of fascinating family enterprises, family firms, and family offices. I founded this series to offer a useful platform for listeners to hear from veterans, academics, and leaders in the vast family firm ecosystem. Whether you are a family business owner, building, running, or advising a family office, or just expanding your family office activities, I hope these conversations are useful and enlightening. And now, it is time to turn our attention [01:00] to our accomplished guest on today’s episode.
I'm very pleased today to host Kirby Rosplock, PhD, founder of Tamarind. Kirby, it's great to have you today on the Family Business Audiocast.
Kirby Rosplock: It's great to be here. Thanks so much.
R. Adam Smith: Yeah. So happy we finally got you on. Thank you for joining. I'm going to share a bit about you, and then we'll jump right in.
Kirby Rosplock: Great.
R. Adam Smith: So, Kirby is the founder of Tamarind Partners, which is a leading family office global consultancy, recognized in 2019 as the Best Family Office Management Consultancy and also recently, in 2023, and then also rated by the Family Wealth Report for several years running as well.
She also founded a sister company, Tamarind Learning, which is an online learning platform designed for families, their beneficiaries, and their advisors. That company also was named Best Specialty Service Provider within the industry recently by [02:00] the Family Wealth Report. And we'll talk a bit about some recent accolades for the firm as well.
Kirby is recognized by her peers as a trusted innovator, advisor, and educator. She is known for her contributions as an author, also as a speaker, across the family enterprise and family office community. She was, herself, born into an enterprising family and has been across multiple governance, culture, operational, inheritor roles, and also has written several books, including the Complete Family Office Handbook and earlier the Complete Direct Investing Handbook.
Kirby also has won several prestigious awards, including, in 2018 and also recently, the family wealth industry Thought Leadership Award, and also a lifetime [achievement] award from the Family Firm Institute (FFI) in 2018.
Kirby graduated from Middlebury College with her MBA from Marquette and also [03:00] a PhD from Saybrook University. With over 20 years of experience, she has a wonderful array of expertise and shares that expertise with her clients across the family business sector as well as finance and family wealth. She also serves as the Dean of Family Office at the Purposeful Planning Institute, PPI, and as a faculty member at the University of Denver. Lastly, as a Fellow and former FFI GEN faculty.
So, I’ll pause there. Otherwise, we’ll probably fill up the whole episode. It’s just great to have you here today. I’m excited to get into the conversation.
Maybe just briefly, where are you today? What are you up to? And tell us a bit about your company.
Kirby Rosplock: Well, I didn’t expect all that. No one ever reads my bio and it’s kind of overwhelming even to hear it out loud. So, where am I today? I’m actually in the Midwest and I’m back to my roots where my family have origin. Well, where [04:00] my household family resides mainly. I grew up in Pittsburgh, but my folks actually migrated back to where my dad’s family grew up.
My dad’s parents were from Battle Creek, Michigan, and then moved outside of Milwaukee. And my parents moved here later in their lives to take care of his parents. And my husband's family is all from around the Wisconsin area. So, happily raising our two teenage daughters in the Midwest. Formerly, we'd been in the Palm Beach area for about 15 years. So, we are here and it's great because a lot of our families that we work for, family offices and enterprising families, are on both coasts.
R. Adam Smith: Right.
Kirby Rosplock: Well And so, it makes it a lot easier to get from one coast to the other. From Florida, it's not quite as easy, although when we were working with more Latin American families, it was certainly easier to get [05:00] down south.
So, that's geographically where we're at. And I guess business-wise, we are bouncing all over the place between family office consultancy and a lot of education work now that Tamarind Learning is humming along.
R. Adam Smith: Got it. We'll cover that shortly. Given your unique experience as a beneficial owner-inheritor and fiduciary as well with your own enterprise, talk a bit about those lessons. And how did that shape the founding of Tamarind Learning and also the curriculum? And who is your primary client constituency in Tamarind Learning?
Kirby Rosplock: Yeah, that's a great question. So, I think where we saw a gap in the education space is that you get an MBA, you learn to be an operator, you learn either to go down sort of a finance track, an investing track. Maybe you're going to go into sort of a law track, investment banking track. Maybe you're going more the marketing and [06:00] HR track, right? But when you're born into an enterprising family, it's very different. You either are tracked maybe to want to aspire and go into the family business or work in some function of the business, or maybe you're kind of tracked that you don't and you want to find your own path outside of it.
Either way, you have responsibilities and commitments either as an active or a passive owner or maybe a passive constituent connected to that family enterprise, and you kind of need to know things about that business.
And oh, by the way, a lot of wealth and business ownership is actually not passed directly to you. It's passed through vehicles like trusts. And when you go to business school, for example, or you get an undergrad in business or finance, you rarely learn a lot about [07:00] those kinds of vehicles. So, what we started to realize is there’s a hard road for advisors and families to teach younger family members all the way up to young adults and emerging adults what it was to be a trust beneficiary or what it was to become one day maybe a trustee or how to read a trust, right?
These things are actually not really taught anywhere. And then it's very difficult as an advisor to know you have to sort of be responsible to teach or maybe inform a client or their child or adult child about a trust or an estate plan or the effects of a parent's estate plan. But somewhere in the mix, they have to know how an estate plan works or what probate is or why you're avoiding it or what trust taxation looks like or [08:00] how the different forms of trusts work and why your parents set them up in the way they did.
R. Adam Smith: Right.
Kirby Rosplock: So, these are kind of really complex issues that never get taught. So, that’s just kind of why we decided to build the curriculum we built.
R. Adam Smith: Okay. So, it’s sort of like an advanced technical MBA around the specifics of the industry—estate planning, trust, governance—creating tools that are not readily available within traditional advanced education.
That's great. So, walk us through how some of these tools help the family firms bridge the gap between these more complex topics and everyday life, and just give us a sample of some of the coursework.
Kirby Rosplock: So, a great example is—I like to tell stories, right? That's more interesting than anything. But we had a group of siblings come to us and they were faced with trusts that were set up for them [09:00] that had a lot of family properties put into them. And they all had to sort of decide who were going to be successor trustees among them as siblings, right? They were going to have to designate one or more of them as successor trustees.
And before they did that, they kind of wanted to know, well, really what does that job look like, and who's really best equipped to do it among them as family members? And, oh by the way, what's really the liability for me if I step into that role? And, oh by the way, what should be the temperament? And what are all these functions and responsibilities?
And so, this became the course on trustee basics. It became so valuable for them to do together. So, our learning can be asynchronous, but it can also be done in pods or in cohorts. And so, they took it as a [10:00] self-directed group and they decided they didn’t want an advisor. They could have had their family office person. They also had a family business advisor who worked integrally with their family, but they said, “No, we're going to just do it on our own.”
So, they did it self-directed, and they went through the course together over a series of months. And it was invaluable for them to be able to dialogue, talk to each other, figure it out, and then sort of figure out the mandate for them what would work and then apply it and sort of draft what the expectation for that family member trustee would look like. And then voting, right? Coming together and making a decision.
So, that's a really good example of the exercise of going through the course, learning, adapting, applying, and then executing for what they needed.
R. Adam Smith: Okay, good. We'll talk more about that course by the end. But we know that about 70% of wealthy families, perhaps in the US, lose most [11:00] of their wealth by the second generation, another 90% by the third. So, there's really a drop-off there.
In the Family Business Audiocast, we've been talking a lot with our former guests around this tricky succession planning, right? We had some recent commentary by Valerie Galinskaya from the Merrill Lynch Center [for Family Wealth]. That was really interesting. And with Tom [Thomas] Deans, of course, with his perspective looking at a different approach to succession planning. And then, more techy alternate investment approach conversations with Ilya Strebulaev from Stanford Business School.
So, we've had a lot of interesting commentary on this issue of succession planning more generally, and that also relates to the wealth creation through buying and selling companies and building wealth in these operating companies.
I'd like you to talk a bit about building private wealth that is [12:00] nascent within the primary operating company, and what do you see as some of the dynamics in the market between G1 and G2 in preparing for the succession of this built-up illiquid wealth?
Kirby Rosplock: Concentrated positions within a core operating business is a wonderful place to build wealth. And that's usually the entrepreneur's dream realized. And that's where we've seen so many home runs hit by business geniuses who have been able to have that successful wealth creation story. And so, the most difficult piece of that is how do you realize that, pass that on, and make it the next generation's dream as well? We know that that statistic that you provided is a lot of that, you know, 90% [13:00] don't succeed into the third generation.
That stat is all around communication and education. It's not because of the success of structure and technical planning; that's largely because of communication and education. And so, Vic Preisser, who created that research, found that most families just don't talk and don't communicate and don't educate around wealth. In fact, more recent research shows that only 18% of parents actually talk to their children about money. And more recent financial literacy education shows that Americans, by and large, are fairly financially illiterate. In fact, there was a more recent financial literacy survey that found that Americans only scored a 47% on average on a financial literacy survey, and Gen Z only scored, sadly, a 37% on average.
So, if 59% of [14:00] parents are uncomfortable talking to their kids about money, we actually have a far graver issue. And so, when these very successful entrepreneurs create this vast amount of wealth, we need to double down really not about the structure and the success of the planning and the estate planning and the wealth transfer planning, but actually invest far more in the human capital of the successive generations to emboldened what they're prepared to do next. And that's where I've seen so many families fall down.
They spend so much time working with their technical advisors at the silent gen and the boomer gen, and they get that all right. And then it falls down at the millennial, Gen X, and Gen Z place, and we don't have a good handoff.
R. Adam Smith: So, let's say there's a significant single operating company [15:00] that should be liquidated because there isn't succession management within the company or the family just doesn't want to own it and/or they want liquidity. So, obviously I have experience on the acquisition and monetization and governance side, but there are these subtleties in terms of preparation for the event. So, what do you think are the areas that sophisticated family offices should really work on the most to make that sale more seamless? What are the hot spots right now?
Kirby Rosplock: Well, there's obviously a lot of pre-planning that sometimes doesn't effectively get done in advance. And that's really an anticipation of the sale. What is it on a family governance side? What are we doing to set the family up for success pre-sale? And sometimes we focus so much on what the liquidity and the opportunity post-sale will get a family without putting constraints, without putting more governing principles in place, [16:00] and without putting more clear purpose and more guardrails of what's it for? how are we going to utilize it? what are we trying to do with it once we are on that other side?
And so, sometimes it's like letting all the air out of a balloon. We lost the opportunity to figure out where we were trying to go after that event happened. Not to mention, it's sort of like chumming the water with the sharks; once the transaction happens, it can be sort of a frenzy of all kinds of sharky advisors wanting to jump in and sell you stuff and push you in this product and tell you this is the latest and greatest. And so, it's very important to assemble the right kind of team, to really have a very thoughtful process in place, to be very mindful to go slow before trying to go really fast.
You’re not going to [17:00] miss anything by deploying three or six or eight months later. You're not market timing here, right? So, we'd much rather miss a little bit of upside potential than deploying too quickly and end up, you know, investing with the wrong kinds of unsavories [sic] or potentially being locked up in things that were really not the right things where we should have deployed too quickly.
R. Adam Smith: Okay.
Kirby Rosplock: So, I much more advocate taking your time to build the right kind of structure with the right kind of people and really setting expectations well before the sale.
R. Adam Smith: Great. I totally agree with that. And also, to not pinch pennies when selecting and diligence when hiring service providers to get approved.
Kirby Rosplock: Yes.
R. Adam Smith: Let's talk a bit more about the family ties, on that note. So, you said that education, obviously, is a powerful tool—education as well as transparency and communication. Maybe talk [18:00] a little bit more about the Tamarind Learning educational program and how you all facilitate this financial literacy and conversation.
Maybe you have a recent experience with a family enterprise that's more fragmented. How do you pull them together in these dialogues, talking about the charter and the governance and the ownership and preparing for a major liquidity event. Maybe walk us through some of that experience of the softer sides of the situation.
Kirby Rosplock: Just full disclosure, I want to be clear that Tamarind can come in and, in some cases, I'll have a family that says, “Hey, Kirby, I want to get education,” and maybe I'm also helping consult to the family and provide some education through Tamarind Partners, right? That's the family office consultancy.
Now, I'm not scalable, as you know, but then I have a lot of advisors and I have a lot of consultants who actually, they use Tamarind [19:00] Learning and they're consulting and advising the family.
So, the beauty of what we've built on the Tamarind Learning side is that we don't necessarily get in between the advisor and their client. And so, we actually welcome when an advisor or a consultant knows that they need help with the education piece. And they might have a client who, you know, maybe they're worried that their investment person, they're like, “Hey, they might be selling me product.” Well, they come to Tamarind Learning and they know we don't sell product. We're not an investment advisor. We have nothing to sell but learning, right? So, they actually feel comforted to know that Tamarind Learning is just education. We have no relationships and products. We don't have any commissions or kickbacks.
So, the beauty of how we work is that the learning can help potentially inform and get people ready and prepared [20:00] to understand the kinds of decisions they might have to make, say, pre-trust termination or, say, pre-sale of a company, or maybe they have to make a decision whether they're in or out of staying with a business or leaving a business, right? Or do I stay part of this trust or am I breaking out of it?
So, I think the beauty of what we can provide is the education to learn up, to be informed at that boardroom table or that decision moment. And then, you can have more educated conversations with your advisors so you don't feel like the one in the conversation that doesn't feel prepared to contribute or doesn't know the right questions to ask.
R. Adam Smith: Okay. On this platform, I spend a lot of time talking about legacy, including the purpose, but also the definition of legacy and how it relates to each family office. So, it's not just lumped into a single word. [21:00] And I've had some papers that I've been fortunate to co-author and write and talk about at conferences and in academic journals with FamilyBusiness.org and hopefully with HBR as well.
So, for me, it's an important topic and every person, expert, that we have on the show, and also just in real life, seems to have their own spin on legacy.
Maybe if you could share your viewpoint on legacy for the families, given it's a fundamental concept for all the clients, and also how you approach this topic within Tamarind.
Kirby Rosplock: So legacy, I think, is really loaded because it both is a bridging concept, right? So, I see it as sort of a tie that connects us to where we came from. But it also is something we steward to where we're going.
And for many families, the legacy [22:00] is so much more than the financial wealth. That's part of this whole journey. It's part of their identity. It's part of their values. It's part of so much more of their connection to the communities they live in and how they see themselves. And so, I think about so many different stories that show up in the coursework throughout the Tamarind Learning curricula. And so, I personally feel like everybody's legacy stories we’ve woven through Tamarind reflect elements of legacy in different ways. But more importantly, I think for Tamarind, legacy is really that binder, right?
We do what we do because we see the need for families to have continuity. And we know how important education is [23:00] to building these bridges and keeping families whole. So, legacy is all about the connection and keeping that continuity going.
R. Adam Smith: Thank you. That's great. Another area of interest for you and me and offering services to family offices is the global perspective. It can be related to building a multi-family office, it can be a buyer-seller of business, it can be hiring different partners from different countries, or, of course, understanding the offshore client and their cultural differences.
If you could share some thoughts on how Tamarind approaches the global mindset for your clients, that's one important topic these days with families working together across different countries, different cultures, different direct deals.
And then as a subset of that, also addressing the growing wealth and involvement of women [24:00] within the family office community.
Kirby Rosplock: That's great. So, Tamarind Partners, on the consultancy side, we definitely work with a lot of global families. Families are global and mobile. We find that most families have tentacles all around the world now. And certainly, if they're not physically or geographically diverse, they feel geographically diverse because of our devices, right? We feel connected to all parts of the world because we are connected through social media and the internet, and information is real-time.
And so, when some awful, cataclysmic natural disaster happens on the other side of the world, we feel it. So, I definitely know I get to experience a lot through my clients: [25:00] the good and the bad of how their businesses are impacted, how their philanthropic generosity impacts the world through some of the things that they offer and do when most of the time it goes anonymous. Many of my clients are very, very discreet. So, I definitely feel the ability to quietly live on the sidelines, anonymously, through all the layers of NDAs that I operate under.
Tamarind Learning right now is on the education side and is operating primarily in North America, in Canada and the US. We do have some families that are multi-jurisdictional, and they'll still want to come and take either the US or our Canadian curriculum, but they typically have [26:00] their estate planning or legal modalities in one of those two jurisdictions.
We are excited to expand in the coming years through channel partners into other parts of the world. And our software as a service is set up so we can do that once we identify appropriate partners. So hopefully, if we have people listening on the phone who say, oh, gosh, we would love to help you get into, you know, Singapore or Australia or other parts of the world, we can do that. You know? It's actually not too difficult.
But again, we don't have the subject matter expertise on board right now. So, if that is you on the phone or on the net right now, please reach out to us.
R. Adam Smith: Good. And then also, more women are getting involved into the G2 and G3 in larger family offices, whether running a company or [27:00] setting up or expanding the MFO, taking over the SFO.
Can you talk a bit about that as well?
Kirby Rosplock: Yes. So, women are definitely climbing the ranks more so and advanced degrees. And so, for sure, there are so many more women coming into leadership roles in the advisory market in general: banking, financial services, and certainly the family office and multi-family office ranks.
We still have some catching up to do on the pay scales. I'm not going to lie. So, we don't quite have parity there. That being said, we do have the same, I think, competence. And some would say our temperament on the investment side—there's research that shows that women actually do outperform some of their male counterparts on the investment front.
So, I do think there is going to be an increasing number of women coming into those roles only [28:00] for the reason, too, that we have a scarcity. We don't have enough. We have a shortage of talent with the boomers exiting. And by the way, there's 10,000 baby boomers that retire every single day right now. So, this is a great time. If you're in the financial services world and you want to break into family office, I would say this is a great time to start retooling and find a way to cross over into this space because there is a real need and a gap.
So, I'm excited for more women to join the family office ranks because I think this is a wonderful space and there's a lot of great opportunity to grow in these MFO-, SFO-, OCIO-, outsource chief investment officer-type opportunities.
R. Adam Smith: Definitely. I totally agree with that. We should talk about that offline; I have some situations which could use your help and it's an exciting time for the part of that market.
[29:00] One last topic. In the family office structure, there are pros and cons for both the single-family office and also expanding and complexifying the single-family office into a group of families or the multi-family office structure.
Can you talk about what are the most relevant dynamics you're dealing with right now and some of the trends that we're facing within the multi-family office industry?
Kirby Rosplock: Sure. So, the single-family office space has grown dramatically, I would say, over the last 20 years, mainly because the wealth has just exploded in the US. So, I could go on and on about that. But with that, you know, we do have this massive wealth transfer event happening, as we've talked to, about between 80 to 140 trillion [dollars] is passing globally.
So, what's happening is that as wealth is transferring, some of these single-family offices are sort of asking this question, “Do I still serve a purpose [30:00] to go on and maintain this entity?” And some family members are saying, “Do I peel out of my single-family office, and do I consider going it on my own?”
And so, we have startup family offices and set up. So, profit interest type of structures that are spooling up they might be LLCs, they might be C-Corps. And there's a lot of pros and cons to setting those up. There's a lot of expense around it. There's a lot of competition for talent. Now, we've got a huge amount of multi-family offices, and there's some very, very large ones, there's some medium-sized ones. The large ones I’m talking about are $25, $50, all the way up to like $100 billion in assets, typically an RIA, registered investment advisor. Then we move downstream. Some are smaller; anywhere from $1, $3, to $5 billion [31:00] of assets under management or AUA.
So, they will take on a whole number of families. They might do a whole number of services or have a limited cadre of services: financial planning, administration, reporting, tax advisory, accounting, aggregated reporting. So, you really have to know what services you need, how much high-touch and handholding, and really understand the type of investment guidance that you're seeking. Some are, you know, very, very high-touch and might be building and have in-house, complex investment advisory. Some will be managers of managers, open architecture.
So, you really have to sort of know what you're getting. And the fees can be very, very different on the MFO side. But on the SFO side, the fees can be [32:00] anywhere from, if you're very large—when I say large: a billion plus—you might be looking at 30-40 basis points on AUM. If you’re smaller—call it $50 to $250 million—you might be looking at 1-2%, again, on AUM.
So, the fees can be quite large if you're on the smaller side. So, again, I think you have to be thoughtful of what you can stomach. And most people who go the SFO route really care about control, control, control, privacy, and they just really want to be the king of their castle or queen.
R. Adam Smith: That's great. I agree. One last comment—we'll wrap up in a couple of minutes—but I did see a recent award that you won, if you can share a bit about that. And then also, share maybe, is there a family office or a family-owned company that you admire that you can [33:00] talk to us about as a point of inspiration?
Kirby Rosplock: Oh, boy. There are a lot of really amazing family offices out there. I can talk about some offices that I’ve written about because I know they’re in my public domain. There’s an office, it’s called C-Y-M-I, CYMI. Jill Barber is the president of that office. It’s the family that basically ran IAMS Pet Food. And I really admire that office because they have been extraordinarily passionate around governance and getting it right and their values.
And so, I've done a podcast with Jill Barber, and I really encourage you to listen to it if you're interested in family office governance and family governance. They've done a very smart job about [34:00] making sure that they align their governance, their values, and their planning, short and long term.
They also have an arm called Aileron, which is a nonprofit they spun out that's all around leadership development. So, it extends into their philanthropy and their commitment to the community. And they've been very successful. And they've had some trials and tribulations, but they've been able to manage, I think, a lot of change with their family because of the way they've set up and organized. So, that would be one family I've had a lot of admiration for. And they've done a tremendous amount of work to prepare the family and the next-gen. So, that's one that I would call out as a real success.
R. Adam Smith: That's wonderful. Thank you, Kirby. It's great to have you today to learn a lot more about you and both sides of the Tamarind organization.
Maybe one last thing; what is the favorite part of your job and your interaction with your clients?
Kirby Rosplock: You brought up women. [35:00] I do really relish and enjoy working with—I do enjoy the men too, don't get me wrong. But I've had the chance to work with many matriarchs and next-gen. I root for the underdogs, right? So, I really enjoy working with complicated families.
Nobody comes to me when everything is working, right? So, you don't call a consultant or an advisor when you're swimmingly perfect and everything's awesome. So, I like complexity. I like challenges. And I also like helping families help themselves. So, I'm not a fixer. I'm somebody who empowers families to find the answers themselves.
So, I find great gratification, honestly, when families start to find their footing and they start to make things work for themselves. And I know this sounds awful to say, but when I kind of work myself out of a job. [36:00] It's a very bizarre satisfaction to have, but I know I've done a good job when families start saying, “Hey, Kirby, we only need to meet with you once a quarter.” Or “Hey, we'll call you when we have the next challenge that we need your help on.”
So, to me, that's great satisfaction when I get to see the battleship of a family office that's very complex start to actually move in the right direction and find success.
R. Adam Smith: Great story and accolade. Thank you for that.
Thank you all for joining. It was really wonderful to have you today, Kirby. Kirby Rosplock, PhD, founder of Tamarind Enterprises and Tamarind Learning. And you can find her, of course, on her websites and also on LinkedIn or DM her directly. Kirby, great to have you here today.
Kirby Rosplock: Thanks so much. It was great to be here.
R. Adam Smith: This is R. Adam Smith signing off. Stay tuned for our next episode of the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn.
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