Family Business Audiocast | Episode 32 | Jim Grubman | Family Wealth Consulting

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About Our Guest:

Jim Grubman founded Family Wealth Consulting, offering professional consulting services to clients, their advisors, and financial and legal advisory firms. With over 30 years of experience, his expertise in how families adapt to wealth—whether self-made or inherited—has made him a sought-after consultant globally. Jim specializes in family dynamics related to wealth, family business issues, and high-net-worth (HNW) and ultra-high-net-worth (UHNW) wealth management. He assists multi-generational families and their advisors with wealth transitions and the intricacies of governance, structure, culture, and family dynamics, and is notably recognized for his development of the wealth 3.0 paradigm.

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[Transcript]

R. Adam Smith: [Intro] Welcome to the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn. I am R. Adam Smith, creator of this audiocast series. As an entrepreneur, investor, founder, investment banker, and board leader the last 25 years, I am fortunate for my many experiences within the family firm industry. 

A warm thank you to our live audience on LinkedIn today – and for those listening in the future.

A brief comment on why I created this broadcast: private companies are a passion of mine, having grown up in a family of entrepreneurs, and having engaged for two decades in deals, strategic transformations, investments, and boards, with an array of fascinating family enterprises, family firms, and family offices. I founded this series to offer a useful platform for listeners to hear from veterans, academics, and leaders in the vast family firm ecosystem. Whether you are a family business owner, building, running, or advising a family office, or just expanding your family office activities, I hope these conversations are useful and enlightening. And now, it is time to turn our attention [01:00] to our accomplished guest on today’s episode.

I'm very pleased to host Jim Grubman, who is a globally recognized leader in family wealth consulting. Jim, thank you again for coming today.

Jim Grubman: Well, thank you for having me.

R. Adam Smith: I'm excited. Okay, a bit of words on you. So, Jim is the founder of Family Wealth Consulting with over three decades of experience helping multi-generational families and their advisors navigate the complexities of wealth transitions as well as governance, structure, culture, and family dynamics. He's particularly known for his pioneering work on the wealth 3.0 paradigm—which we'll speak about today—where Jim redefines wealth management by focusing on long-term family success and their well-being.

And these deep insights into how families adapt to wealth, whether they're self-made or inherited, have made him a sought-after expert in the field amidst many, many different subjects, and globally as well.

I'm very excited to [02:00] have him today on the show. Also, some of his approaches are quite innovative and they focus on sustaining the legacy and the continuity throughout multiple generations.

So, we're going to dive right into the wealth 3.0 paradigm. Jim, you co-developed this paradigm, shifting the family wealth advising really from more, let's say, fear-based strategies to focus on engagement and resilience. So, given the explosion of the family office and family enterprise ecosystem and the different types of generations and missions and operational structures, how does this approach reshape governance and leadership dynamics over the next decade looking ahead?

Jim Grubman: Well, I think it's a great question and a good place to start. As some people who've read the book on wealth 3.0 or seen some of the articles [know], the idea [03:00] is that traditionally in wealth 1.0—which still exists in many parts of the industry, but particularly was around before around 1985—it was mostly about the money. And then we went through the last 40 years of the development of the wealth management industry and became aware of broader ways to think about family wealth and family business. But still, it's often very siloed. And there's been a lot of negativity and pessimism and fear based around the whole thing, exemplified by the phrase, "Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations"—often called a curse.

R. Adam Smith: Right.

Jim Grubman: What I and my colleagues in Wealth 3.0 have advocated is the idea that we're really changing assumptions and expectations in a more positive fashion to realize that a lot of the statistics and views about wealth are really very old and [04:00] that in the modern world, either we actually don't know what happens with wealth over time or the options may be more positive.

And so, we've been advocating for a greater sort of assumption of possibility. And maybe to exemplify that, I've often recently told the story about [how] I was at a major client forum with the family office exchange about two years ago talking about a Wealth 3.0 perspective. And at the break, a young guy came up to me and introduced himself as a generation three, a G3. And he actually had tears in his eyes. And he shook my hand, and he said, you know, “You're the first advisor I have ever met who didn't either tell me or imply that I was going to be the downfall of my family.”

And so, [05:00] I think that's part of why we're doing this—it's had a real impact. And as we pivot away from that, it's okay to acknowledge the anxieties of entrepreneurs and wealth creators that it was really difficult to make the money and that they're worried about what's going to happen. But instead of telling them their fears are true, we're just validating them and supporting them. And we need to build better plans where advisors have less influence in locking things down by saying, well, we have to protect the money from the family and the family from the money.

So, those are some of the perspectives on why we're trying to take a more positive approach to things.

R. Adam Smith: Okay, I like the positivity. And also, there's a lot of talk about transparency, communication, and courage for family offices and their families and their boards to really have open discourse. But, of course, that transparency in communication [06:00] is not sufficient.

Can you comment on bridging the divide of the courage to speak about the wealth, about the pride, ego, the status of society, and having a large company that's going to be sold and make a lot of money? People can talk within the family office or the family about the matters, but ultimately there're also the actions that have to occur to have harmony, or to manage governance, or to sell a big company.

So, can you talk a bit about bridging the two?

Jim Grubman: Sure, you put your finger on something which has been very much part of tradition that was assumed to be a good thing, which is, don't tell them it's coming. Don't tell them because you'll demotivate them. They don't need to know so that they can think they're middle-class and therefore they'll grow up best. [07:00] Don't tell them anything, they'll become entitled.

A lot of the reasons for things being opaque and not transparent were assumed to be, you know, wealth is toxic, it'll destroy people, and it's better that they not know. And then, when it finally arrives, everything will be fine. And what we learned was actually often that doesn't work. And in fact, it can often backfire whereby not preparing people for what was coming and not being transparent and educating and discussing and preparing people along the way, what occurred was essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy where once people did encounter the money, they were totally unprepared for it and either overwhelmed, guilty, anxious, they went crazy with it.

[08:00] So, the more modern and better approach around transparency is really about the value of communication and the idea that starting actually from preparing kids to have money skills and building that up to wealth skills and understanding about family enterprise, that it's a long process of openness and preparation with appropriate strategies that actually leads to best success.

R. Adam Smith: We're going to talk about transitions on our next topic, but recently on the audiocast I had Jason Ma and also Emily Bouchard. And then in a couple of weeks, we have also Chelsea Toler. All of us are speaking about next-gen and focusing on the succession, both the procedural and emotional elements of succession.

[09:00] And, of course, you have been in the industry and have collaborated and created conversations or white papers or books with some legends like yourself, like Dennis Jaffe and Harvard Business School. As you know, we've had Christina Wing on the show as well, so it's really a privilege to have these conversations and to share these conversations.

Of course, after our talk today, it will be shared with thousands and thousands of views and listeners indefinitely, which is wonderful.

So, next, we'll talk about transition. But just one quick comment about what you just said is this expectations theory just from a psychological perspective when you're dealing with wealth and this pride issue of, let's say, the intergenerational dynamics. How can the family systems mitigate that expectation issue while also being transparent? That's tricky, right? So, there's a certain [10:00] humanist element to that.

There's on one hand the pride of being part of a big story, a big win, creating wealth, right? That's the pride side that also affects ego, and then again ego affects decision-making.

Jim Grubman: Maybe I understand it or think about it in a different way. And I think traditionally, actually, for a lot of people, we've often thought about it as kind of an either/or. You know, is wealth a blessing or a curse or a burden?

R. Adam Smith: I see what you mean. A balance.

Jim Grubman: Either people kind of turn out well because they're regular people in general society or they may be spoiled or entitled as related to wealth and ego, as you say. I think what we're learning is there's a much wider range of things and a lot of it comes down to a couple of basic principles. One is parenting. You know, good, effective parenting [11:00] that has a combination of love and discipline, emphasizes values like gratitude, expects initiative, but also has open communication and collaboration.

Really good parenting is a significant contributor to people, in the proverbial sense, sort of living in the land of wealth as solid, responsible, effective people. But the other thing is a core understanding I often talk about, what is the goal in parenting and in trying to raise children with a significant family enterprise or wealth?

And people often suggest things ranging from, well, you know, they need to be empathic or philanthropic or good stewards or responsible or this or that. But I frame it a little more generally. [12:00] And it's interesting—I’d be curious to see what you think—that to me, the main goal, the bottom line in helping people with the privileges and responsibilities of wealth is that we have to raise people to be good decision-makers in all the roles and responsibilities that they're going to have in adult life. Good decision-making.

Good decision-making combines head and heart and values, sometimes spirit. You know, when G1 entrepreneurs think how they've come to build a business and do well with it, they often recognize that they had to learn a lot of decisions in terms of also making mistakes along the way. And they're able to make decisions about the complexities of significant wealth and enterprise. [13:00] And that really is what we need to do with the rising generation. And that means you have to begin from the early days to help people make money decisions, you know, teach kids decisions with their allowances, to help them understand wealth decisions, enterprise decisions.

People do well in adult life when they're good decision-makers, not just in common sense, but when they actually know how to make the complicated decisions that go along with all of these roles. You can't train people to have the skills and to make the decisions if you keep away from them knowledge about the skills they have to develop, and then, somehow expect that they're going to know how to make all those decisions without any preparation.

So, I don't know if that helps, [14:00] but I'd be curious to see, does it fit with some of your experience, Adam?

R. Adam Smith: I like that. I think it's a big topic. And of course, it's not easy to just want it to happen. It takes a lot of work every day.

I have three kids, two sons and one daughter, and they're at that inflection point of life where they become little adults, and they start adulting.

Jim Grubman: Oh, lucky you.

R. Adam Smith: So, on the one hand, to help children become the next leaders of society, there is a value system, as you said, that is essential to instill in them and to share with them. But then at some point, to become their own next generation, let's say if they go to college or after college, and then there needs to be some space to give them to come into their own. That becomes a critical transition point at which point these key values, as you said, as parents—but also you can take the analogy in a [15:00] family office for the next generation—is to make sure that time is well spent in the more formative time.

So, let's go to the next point we have in our bullets about next generation.

Jim Grubman: Sure.

R. Adam Smith: And we'll come back to transitions shortly. But you have emphasized this concept of capable next-gen leaders. So, let's talk a bit about those principles that the family office or the family enterprise can adopt for their children in the family business to appreciate. There's the privileges and responsibilities, but also not feeling entitled. So, you talked a bit about that.

This concept of, let's say, humility, and awareness, and mindfulness, how much of it is innate versus more cognitive, and how much of that can be trained over time within the family?

Jim Grubman: Well, it's funny. Let me take your last point first [16:00] because as a clinical psychologist, and my background in neuropsychology and knowing literature, I'm with you. I raised two sons and a daughter myself. They're in their 40s now. So, a little bit farther ahead on the journey than you are, but there're good things ahead.

One of the things that I came to see over time, and the literature interestingly says, is actually a lot of personality is hardwired. Kids kind of have their personality from the beginning genetically in ways that we often do not appreciate. And parenting can support and enhance it. It may also undercut it. But interestingly, a lot of who we are is part of [what] we are born with. And again, there's substantial research about the nature versus nurture issue in parenting.

[17:00] The relevance is, you know, I've worked with families where they had two, three, four kids, more, and most of the kids turned out well, and one was just really difficult or, you know, very self-centered. And what's hard to grasp is, you know, there are elements in which that may not be the wealth. In a family of five to have one kid who isn't on a good track is not that unusual because of the lottery of genetics.

So, I think it's important that parents understand that you can do the best that you can, you can set conditions, good parenting is crucial, and you're working with somebody who has some elements from birth.

So, I just wanted to mention that, and I don't know if you look at your kids and you realize how much [18:00] their personalities really were there from the very beginning.

R. Adam Smith: Well, look, I think we're really focusing on the way to create excellence in a family office or a family business ultimately.

Jim Grubman: Sure.

R. Adam Smith: I think a lot of it's about excellence. And the path towards excellence in a family office or a family business is really very relevant to excellence in a large company or life in general.

So, there're the soft skills and there're the hard skills and so I enjoy this conversation with you, and I encourage everybody to read your materials and your books among many experts because gathering the different points of view and putting them together into a puzzle and then keeping up with the latest information and reading, let's say, the journals and the think tanks and the articles. And we see this thought leadership really becoming quite a large industry because [19:00] it is almost a lagging indicator of the scale of family offices and wealth and—

Jim Grubman: Absolutely.

R. Adam Smith: The evolution of organizations. It’s lagging. It's really lagging for many, many years and now it's finally growing up, which is nice. You see more legends like yourself and Dennis Jaffe and Jim [James] McLaughlin, you know, you've been around. But then, there's also these big consulting companies that are really trying to bring scale, I guess, to the industry. And that's why I admire when people like yourself build companies and expand your resources to share.

We see that with the Wingspan Group. We see that with, of course, Cambridge. We see it with Family Business Consulting Group. And I think that's a wonderful thing. And of course, some other experts that have left, let's say, Cresset [Family Office] or Bessemer [Venture Partners] and so on, and created a boutique, and they want to help their [20:00] small circle of clients.

So, I still think there's a dichotomy and there's a gap on this issue though because I was recently speaking on a panel at Opal [Group] and talking about the family business community. It's becoming so large, I think, that there is going to be more the haves and the have nots, perhaps, and there's going to be more consolidation where the family offices and family businesses that seek to acquire knowledge and to grow, they will succeed, and they will evolve. And then others are more, let's say, comfortable or not seeking to evolve, they will just keep doing their own thing and they'll be perhaps less scaled or less evolutionary, and perhaps they merge.

I'd like to talk about that a little bit with you in thinking about the next-gen, just briefly, and then you can go on with your next point talking about Oliver Blume [21:00] and into adaptation. But what do you think about consolidation within these organizations in the next decade, given, you know, the pressures of wealth and scale and administration technology? What do you think will happen in the next decade in the industry?

Jim Grubman: Actually, it's a really interesting question, because, in a sense, it's an ecosystem. And I work in leadership at The Ultra High Net Worth Institute, a nonprofit think tank. I think you're aware of that. And we look at exactly what you just raised as a question.

One of the things that I'm aware of from looking at, again, some of the research, also thinking from some major consulting firms, is we have to keep in mind the whole wealth management family office industry is a dynamic industry with things happening at the top end with mergers and acquisitions, consolidation. But remember, [22:00] wealth is constantly being created from below as well.

Financial planning firms that do well and better and better and exceed one billion of assets under management start to turn into wealth management firms, and then they have two billion AOM, and then they get better and do different things, and they maybe start to turn into a bit more of a multi-family office.

There are entrepreneurial aspects in the financial services industry, where there's firms being created, rising from the bottom, and then growing through different life cycles of financial firms. And then there're the large firms kind of at the top that are rolling up other firms and consolidating and doing some of the things you mentioned.

And this is a constant dynamic process. So, I think that there are elements the large aggregators and consolidators [23:00] are learning. And we see this at the Institute. They're very interested in the new business models of how to achieve broad help for a family. And we're looking at and going to be describing things, what we call the hub and spoke model, a kind of network model with an integrator hub that has many services in a variety of the domains that families need, but also strategic partnerships with specialist providers as spokes.

And that may be a better model than the sort of rent versus buy model in the past—

R. Adam Smith: Okay.

Jim Grubman: —where you either had things in-house or did referrals.

R. Adam Smith: Got it. Thank you. I know we're bouncing around a bit, but there's such a massive range of complexity.

Jim Grubman: We have a lot to talk about.

R. Adam Smith: If any of you want to have a marathon, we could just keep talking for hours. [24:00] But I do encourage people to visit The Ultra High Net Worth Institute. And, in particular, there is a thought process that they lay out around the ten domains of family wealth. And it's on the website. But it's interesting to look at that wheel—and Jim's talking about the hub and spoke—that, on the one hand, there's the cultivation of family capital, and then there's the actual creation of the wealth and managing of that wealth.

So, I do encourage you to look at that ten domains model. And also, I like the terminology of “family capital” looking at the health and well-being. You're talking about the dynamics, the learning, leadership, transition, governance. That's a really great term.

Jim Grubman: Thank you.

R. Adam Smith: Why don't you talk a little bit about that term, “family capital,” and then lead that into your Strangers in Paradise book?

Jim Grubman: Sure. Well, I think in some ways, when I was talking about the creation of wealth 2.0 in the last 40 years, that touches on [25:00] the wonderful work of Jay [James] Hughes and others in talking about the different capitals of the family and that it's not all just about the financial capital of the family.

We've continued and extended that thinking to the idea of what actually constitutes some of the elements of family capital. And, as you said, in the ten domains, it's about learning, it's about governance, succession, transition planning, many sorts of things. And so, I think it sort of extends the 2.0 concepts into really drawing them together and integrating them in a cohesive way for the next level of thinking.

R. Adam Smith: Great, let's move into your brand and your book, Strangers in Paradise, where you talk about the struggle of integrating wealth into their identity [26:00] and what it's like for billionaires and high-profile people, several of [whom] we've had on the show, and we'll continue to.

We're actually going to have more family offices on the Family Business Audiocast, in addition to thought leaders like yourself and think tanks and academic heads. So, we are booked out several months and we're running about 50 events a year, which is great.

Jim Grubman: Great.

R. Adam Smith: And we're very lucky to have that, yes.

So, Strangers in Paradise. You talk about how, of course, the G1 or the core family, let's say, will support the rising gen in developing this healthy relationship, and it's not really binary like that's really healthy.

Why don't you talk a bit about that? But just briefly, The Ultra High Net Worth Institute is so impressive, what Steve Prostano has done, and all of you, of course. I did mention some of the legends, but there are others that I did not mention, which I see there. Bill Woodson, of course, and then [27:00] Kathy [Katherine] Lintz at Matter [Family Office].

I just happened to have a conversation about Matter recently and it's quite an amazing event and transaction that the Matter Family Office has gone through.

Jim Grubman: Yes, I'm aware of her. And I think she's done a great job with that, of maintaining the values of the firm, getting capital in to support, but doing it in a way that really fits their value system and their culture. It's a great example.

R. Adam Smith: It is great. And I'm from St. Louis, actually, and we're going to have a conversation on the relationship between, let's say, a family-owned corporate business and then more family-owned wealth management, which is interesting. And Matter is a good example of that.

But anyway, it's a wonderful organization and it's been around quite a while along with some others in the industry like you know with Cambridge and, of course, going back to IPI [Institute for Private Investors] and FOX [Family Office Exchange] and the early leaders. [28:00] So, it's wonderful to see the evolution of the industry and these experts giving value back.

So, just talk a little bit about that, the more rigid 2.0, let's say, old school, make the money, build it, spend it, buy stuff, and then versus 3.0, which is more, let's say, purpose and linking the capitalist model back into society and community.

Jim Grubman: Well, I think in 2.0, again, a lot of good thinking came forward which, actually, we still want to keep. We mentioned when you and I were talking about planning for this, I've often talked about the three questions of adaptation, which also dovetails with the cross-cultural elements I talk about in Stranges in Paradise, which is, you know, anytime a generation is moving forward and a family enterprise [29:00] has to balance looking back and looking ahead, there's really three elements they have to think about:

What from our background still serves us well that we should keep? What from our background no longer serves us as well that we maybe need to let go of? And then, what from our new circumstances, do we take on and learn that will help us for the future?

And, I think, that is an expansion of the thinking that we had previously about wealth, which is, well, either you hold on to the good middle-class values that the G1s came up with and, you know, were raised with and employed in how they dealt with things, or you somehow get lost in wealth and do different things. Or even the rigid emphasis, as you said, that stewardship is the highest purpose, [30:00] you have to be a good steward, and that's what you're going to do.

And what we found is that sort of very simplistic thinking had a limited number of choices for people and it's like, well, suppose I don't want to be a good steward? Suppose as a family, we want to decide that we're going to use our resources for the benefit of the family or the benefit of society, and we're actually going to spend them down in that process. But as a result, people are going to be better.

And so, what we're moving into is a much more balanced, broader menu of different things that wealth can be used for and a broader understanding of what life with wealth and successful enterprise really encompasses.

R. Adam Smith: I like that. I'm actually going to skip the question on the failure rate of transitions because that's covered very often. [31:00] I don't think we need to dig as deep into that.

Jim Grubman: Sure.

R. Adam Smith: But let's go further a little bit as we're finishing up here of honoring the tradition, the legacy, versus being more bold and moving into uncharted territories.

Jim Grubman: Sure.

R. Adam Smith: And if you could all comment on the concept of entrepreneurship within the family enterprise. I covered this topic earlier with Professor Mat [Mathew] Hughes who's a PhD and academic [who] writes FamilyBusiness.org. as you know. I've written with him and them several times. And there is this odd challenge of complexity of entrepreneurship and infusing innovation into family businesses because they're not necessarily equipped to handle that even though their intentions are good.

So, can you talk a bit about that balance? And then you also wanted to talk about Oliver Blume of Porsche.

Jim Grubman: Yes.

R. Adam Smith: To talk about tradition.

Jim Grubman: Well, it's funny because this question often comes up and I've been often asked [32:00] about, well, how do you balance honoring family traditions and yet being bold and entrepreneurial and taking the enterprise into new uncharted territories? And it seems, again, very binary, either/or polarities.

And I happen to be a car guy. I will admit that. Many people who know me know that. And I also happen to love Porsches, particularly, as wonderful automobiles. And I really smiled one time some years ago because one of the chairmen of Porsche, Oliver Blume, had a really great saying. In an article, he said, "Tradition and innovation are two sides of the Porsche coin,” that tradition sustains people, but the task is to be innovative without divorcing themselves from tradition.

And I thought that was fantastic. [33:00] And it really captures what most family businesses have to do. Again, what from your heritage and your tradition is a constant and is part of your brand that you want to keep alive? There's a continuity when you look at Porsches from the 1950s to the present. But at the same time, Porsche took the SUV concept and made the Cayenne, which was heresy, and yet look at how well that worked out.

I think the task for a family and for an enterprise is to find the blend. And it's, again, a dynamic blend of what is core that we want to preserve as part of who we are, as part of tradition and heritage? And yet, how do we keep innovating with it and around it while preserving good heritage? And it's almost a universal [34:00] imperative, but those enterprises that get it right, they are fantastic. They do really well. And the families that understand that, that they balance tradition and heritage with innovation and fresh thinking and openness to hearing about ideas for the future, those families also are just fantastic.

R. Adam Smith: I totally agree. I love this analogy, and Porsche is my favorite car as well.

Jim Grubman: Alright, yes.

R. Adam Smith: And hopefully we can go driving sometime together. I grew up with, briefly, a poor man's Porsche. My dad had a 912.

Jim Grubman: My first Porsche was a 912. So again, we have something in common there.

R. Adam Smith: Really? Yes, it was a little bit extra work in the manual gear shift on that one.

Jim Grubman: Oh yeah, and the floorboards rusted out immediately. We could see the ground going underneath the car. So, you know 912s.

R. Adam Smith: [35:00] That's right. I'm just going to wrap up here to talk a bit about legacy, which is my favorite topic. I just recently spoke about legacy as a keynote speaker in southeast Slovakia two weeks ago where I spoke at the largest family business conference in central Europe with the Family Business Center and the Inštitút Rodinného Businessu to about 300 registrants.

I must give a plug for the amazing, hundred-million-dollar renovated Château and Spa at the Hotel Belu, B-E-L-U, which I highly recommend if you happen to be cruising around southern Slovakia.

Jim Grubman: Beautiful place.

R. Adam Smith: It was a beautiful place, and I think that there was an audience of G1, pretty much. Some G2. I don't think there was much G3 at all given the evolution of the central eastern European economies. [36:00] And the topic of legacy there, and in general, is quite interesting because it means something different to everyone.

So, just as a final comment, if you could just talk a bit about purpose and what legacy within the family enterprise community means to you, generally speaking.

Jim Grubman: Well, you know, it's funny. You're touching on something that's pretty complicated also because, for a lot of people, talking about legacy is a very positive thing and uplifting, and it leads into issues again about stewardship and really wonderful ideals. There are some cultures in which the concept of legacy also has a negative connotation. Some racial groups, some ethnic groups, and the idea of the holdovers from the past that [37:00] sometimes have not been as successful.

So, one tip for advisors listening to this is, don't necessarily assume that every client that you're talking with about the word “legacy” shares your view of what the word means or how it is. You may want to ask about what's your perspective on the traditions impacting your current situation. Something a little bit more general than that. But I think, you know, for most people, the concept of legacy goes back to that sense of continuity and yet enhancement, which is, as a result of the wealth creation that the family has had and that maybe some people have done, what would you want to have continued?

But again, with the rising generation, sometimes that can feel not just a burden [38:00] but a constraint, which is if the only focus is on how do we continue the legacy of G1, where am I in that? What's my contribution? How do I do?

And so, the most current thinking is, again, to be balancing the heritage and legacy, traditions of the past with new contributions, stewardship, purpose, and other things that come from the rising generation and the enhancements that can occur as everybody in the family contributes to the creation of legacy.

I think when a family does that in a really positive way, the legacy is formed constantly over time and is not just something that sits in a glass cabinet somewhere in somebody's house.

R. Adam Smith: I like that. Really evolutionary. So, the pressure is off [39:00] in trying to figure it out and just be X or Y, but the legacy evolves between the moving family charter and the definition of wealth and how the generations agree to build that legacy. And sometimes, as we see, the family just decides to sell out and move on and then create a lot of wealth. Or you look at Tom [Thomas] Deans, where he says sort of recycle it internally and just have the family buy it from itself and keep it going.

So, there are lots of different outcomes.

Anyway, we could talk for hours, but it's been wonderful to have you today. Congratulations on all of your accomplishments and your continued dedication to share knowledge and wisdom and thought leadership to enhance the excellence in the ecosystem that we're operating in today.

Jim Grubman: Well, thank you very much for having me, Adam. I really have enjoyed it.

R. Adam Smith: Me too, thank you. Okay, that's a wrap. Thank you to everyone for joining us today and a special thanks to our esteemed guest, [40:00] Jim Grubman. You can find him on his website and on LinkedIn and also, as I mentioned, the Ultra High Net Worth Institute as well, where you can find some thought leadership. If you’re a family office, you can also join them.

This is R. Adam Smith signing off. Stay tuned for the next episode of the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn.

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