Family Business Audiocast | Episode 33 | Jason Ma | ThreeEQ, Emily Bouchard | Blended Families & Chelsea Toler | Logictry

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About Our Guests:

Emily Bouchard is the founder of Blended Families and a renowned expert in navigating the complexities of multi-generational wealth transitions, having developed her skills as the head of the Global Institute for Family Business Success at PNC's Hawthorn division. Her expertise encompasses family governance, wealth transfer, and the dynamics of blended families. In addition to her coaching, she is an accomplished author focused on estate planning and purposeful prenup agreements. Bouchard's work is aimed at helping families successfully manage their wealth across generations.

Chelsea Toler is the co-founder and co-CEO of Logictry, where she utilizes technology and innovative strategies to foster social change, particularly by collaborating with the next generation. Chelsea also assists families in incorporating progressive philanthropic efforts into their investment strategies. Furthermore, she plays a key role in connecting traditional first-generation and emerging second-generation investing approaches, emphasizing higher beta, higher risk, and venture investments.

Jason Ma, the founder and CEO of 3EQ, is at the forefront of mentoring next-generation leaders in family businesses and corporate environments. With over 40 years of expertise in technology, education, and finance, he has established himself as a globally recognized mentor and strategic advisor. Through his efforts at 3EQ, he aims to guide emerging leaders toward achieving unprecedented success in their endeavors. His contributions extend beyond individual mentorship, as he actively participates in the B20, influencing global policies on work and education. Additionally, he is a respected delegate at the Forbes Global CEO Conference, and a sought-after speaker.

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[Transcript]

R. Adam Smith: [Intro] Welcome to the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn. I am R. Adam Smith, creator of this audiocast series. As an entrepreneur, investor, founder, investment banker, and board leader the last 25 years, I am fortunate for my many experiences within the family firm industry. 

A warm thank you to our live audience on LinkedIn today – and for those listening in the future.

A brief comment on why I created this broadcast: private companies are a passion of mine, having grown up in a family of entrepreneurs, and having engaged for two decades in deals, strategic transformations, investments, and boards, with an array of fascinating family enterprises, family firms, and family offices. I founded this series to offer a useful platform for listeners to hear from veterans, academics, and leaders in the vast family firm ecosystem. Whether you are a family business owner, building, running, or advising a family office, or just expanding your family office activities, I hope these conversations are useful and enlightening. And now, it is time to turn our attention [01:00] to our accomplished guest on today’s episode.

I am very pleased to host Jason Ma, Chelsea Toler, and Emily Bouchard. It's great to have you all today. Tell me a little bit about where you are.

Jason, why don't we start with you, and then Emily and Chelsea. And then, I'll introduce you.

Jason Ma: Adam, great. Very briefly, I arrived at São Paulo in Brazil for the B20 (Business 20) Summit in advance of the G20 (Group of 20) Leader Summit that happens every year. So, this year, as we all know, Brazil is presiding over the G20.

So, I've been lucky to be a B20 member for a decade so far. I’m one of the very few Americans who get appointed every year. The B20 is pretty much the G20's business advisory council. We call it officially the G20's dialogue forum representing the entire global business community. So, technically we represent all the companies, all the firms, on this call, etc.

Back to you, Adam.

R. Adam Smith: [02:00] Emily, what are you up to? Where are you?

Emily Bouchard: I spent the last two weeks with my father, who's going to be 90, and we traveled from Houston to New York to see family, and then to Chicago to see more family, and then we came back to Houston. So, I am living the Family Dynamics personally as well as professionally.

R. Adam Smith: That is very sweet. That is very next-gen of you, which brings us to Chelsea. What are you up to, Chelsea? I know you're doing a move, Chelsea, so that does not sound so easy today.

Chelsea Toler: Yeah, my official move from Austin to New York, although we will be in both cities, but really passionate about our partnership with a key family office and next-gen here. So, made the move today. Excited to see all that New York has to offer, but Austin is our initial and forever home.

R. Adam Smith: I love that. Austin's a great town.

Okay, a bit on you guys. Jason Ma, as you know, is the CEO of [03:00] ThreeEQ. I was very fortunate to spend time with him in Napa at Opal, where he was the emcee and keynote speaker. He did a great job. He is a global leader in ultra-high-net-worth families and also advising in the corporate sector and also a tech investor. His experience spans tech, education, finance. He's also a super networker, mentor, and advisor to hundreds of families.

And as he also was mentioning today, he is involved in the B20 conference. He's a delegate at the Forbes Global CEO Conference. He's also known for guiding, of course, hundreds of young leaders in next-gen to achieve personal and professional success within the family office and family firm environment.

Emily Bouchard, also a former guest on the audiocast here—thank you for coming back—is a leading expert in coaching families through some of the complexities of multi-generational wealth transitions, and she honed those skills as head of the Global Institute for Family Business Success at PNC within the Private Bank [04:00] Hawthorn division, one of the tops in the world. And she built that and specialized there, and afterward, in family governance, wealth transfer, and addressing the blended family dynamics. She's also an author of books on estate planning and purposeful prenup agreements.

Also, Chelsea, a friend of all of us and first-time guest, she focuses on scaling through her work at Logictry and she uses both technology and innovations that drive social change, works with next-gen, helps families integrate progressive philanthropic ventures into their strategies, and bridges some of those gaps between the G1 and G2 approaches to investing in higher beta, higher risk, and venture investments.

Wonderful to have you here today. Thank you all. We're going to have some questions together and then also some individual questions for the next half hour.

Why don't we start. We'll go down through Emily, and then Chelsea, and then Jason throughout the call.

[05:00] Okay, so first of all, family firms often face tension when younger members push for higher risk, higher reward social impact investments, and the old generation sometimes prefers a more conservative approach to safeguarding the family's wealth. Why don't we talk a little bit about those viewpoints in terms of investing in alternative investments, but also operating companies. How does the family enterprise work together to, you know, really address the next generation?

So, we'll go to Emily, Chelsea, and then Jason.

Emily Bouchard: So, I will speak to the family dynamics piece. And the main areas that I focus on are using those polarities that you just described as a way to start looking at shifting the mindset from “either/or” to “both/and,” and really looking at what are the core family values, and helping the whole family, all the generations, come together and define their core values. [06:00] And then, from that place, looking at where they're all aligned and then how they can start looking at those different polar opposites in a place where it can [be], “How can we really honor both of those for the sake of our values and what matters most to us?”

And it's a really robust conversation that allows for that idea of legacy lasting well beyond the people who are currently living when you base what it is you're deciding on on your core family values.

So, that's the main thing I want to share. And Chelsea, the question has to do with the differing viewpoints within families when you have the older generations that are really focused on legacy of the business and while the rising gen, next-gen, is more interested in maybe more growth and risk-taking in terms of investments.

Chelsea Toler: I'm happy to answer with a few things that I think from a research standpoint. So, I completed my PhD looking at [07:00] next-gen women inheritors, but there're a few key indicators with next-gens of families that have stayed not only intact with their assets but also from a family dynamic standpoint. And some of those key indicators or things you can look at are, does the next-gen have a really great relationship with their grandparent or with an outside-of-the-family mentor that can kind of guide them through the process?

Another key component you can look at is next-gen peer communities. So, do they have other next-gen events that they're going to or programming or educational research or just friends or sometimes even siblings that they can kind of talk about their challenges [with]?

And then, the last thing is really engagement in terms of being able to fail and/or to not [feel] what we call imposter syndrome by joining various initiatives or businesses outside of the family prior to having some of those conversations.

[08:00] So, those are just some areas of, you know, if you're thinking about this within your family, if you yourself are a next-gen, there's a lot of great organizations and communities, all champion and passion. My favorite is [NxtGen] Nexus, which I belong to and have for several years, but there are plenty. And really just thinking about, from an older generation standpoint, how do you work with your next-gen to have them be a part of some of these initiatives or have outside-of-the-family mentorship or even advisors that can really help them?

And then, come back to the table to discuss, you know, what a path looks like moving forward for the family legacy, but let their next-gen voice be heard.

R. Adam Smith: Nexus is a great platform for that. I'm glad you mentioned that. And also, Family Business Network. Of course, there are the bigger platforms like Cambridge and so on.

Over to you, Jason.

Jason Ma: Adam, why don't you ask me the question again?

R. Adam Smith: So, we're looking at the balance of the investing, [09:00] let's say, in alternatives or operating companies by the new next-gen, venture capital or incubation or higher beta investments, and blending the G1 conservative approach to the mothership, the operating asset, right? Versus, let's say, letting the next-gen go off and create some higher beta activities with the family wealth.

Jason Ma: Okay, so it's more about investing. Of course, there are many other aspects within the family and next-gens.

R. Adam Smith: Exactly.

Jason Ma: You're right. Especially from where I'm at, based in global Silicon Valley, there's not much I haven't seen. I've been in Silicon Valley for 40 years. And one trend that began happening recently is that more and more of the single-family offices are getting wiser and wiser. And some of them are even kind of [thinking], you know, why am I investing only via being an LP into the VC funds and BE funds? Why don't I do it more and more [10:00] directly? And there's still a human capital quality issue here.

Now, you're absolutely right. On average, some of the leading-gens, myself included, like the patriarchs and matriarchs, are a little bit more conservative. But then again, it depends on the pocket you're in. If you're in Silicon Valley, the leading-gens are very sophisticated when it comes to investing in tech and all that. And the next-gen, sometimes they are—depends on the background, their education, and their training, etc.—they do have some great ideas.

When I coach my next-gen students, of course, I get to know the parents real well, but I go straight into kind of getting to know the next-gens extremely well, logically, psychologically, emotionally, their framework, their stories, and their activities, and their skills, and strengths, and weaknesses, and then kind of hone them so that they're not going to be too out of line. And then, [11:00] they're really focusing on applying their strengths in an integrated fashion. So, it's a bit of a holistic, strategic, tactical approach that would create the best outcome for the family.

And so, I guess I'll leave it at that for now. You have further questions, I'm sure.

R. Adam Smith: Let's continue on this next-gen activity from the family office. Of course, it might not be a family office. It might be a family enterprise, a family business, or a business of families. But for convenience purposes, I like to use the family enterprise as the broader platform, and we can talk about that if we have time later.

Let's talk a bit about entrepreneurialism innovation. So, Emily, we talked a little bit about this before, like the entrepreneurial spirit and culture and staffing and how to have the conversations moving into, let's say, a transition event, M&A, philanthropy, lifestyle activities.

I'd love each of you to talk about, you know, [12:00] how to infuse the entrepreneurial spirit into the family enterprise and how difficult that is sometimes for the next-gen and some of the ways to enhance that dialogue and empower the passions of the next-gen entrepreneurially, not just from a wealth perspective.

Emily Bouchard: Well, I'll kick it off in terms of I really think that it's important for the initial founders that may have had a very strong entrepreneurial spirit that created the wealth or have taken it to the next level to remember that they have a different perspective than those that have been born into it and that some of the skills and the practices that allowed for the initial launch and growth are not necessarily the same skills and talents and necessary approaches to allow for sustainability and long-term success.

And so, again, it's another one of those polarities in terms of, how do you look at all of the different strengths and qualities [13:00] that allow for somebody to be successful in business at a launch stage, at a growth stage, and then at a sustainability stage, and allowing for a broader perspective to be brought in and furthering—and I think Chelsea really put on this point—in terms of bringing in the knowledge base of peers that have been in similar situations and that knowledge that's out there in terms of, what really works within the family system when you want to continue to have the enterprise be successful for the long term?

Maybe, Chelsea, you’d want to expand on that?

Chelsea Toler: Yeah, I'm happy to. So, I think a few things to note, entrepreneurship, just in general, has really taken off. And we thought maybe that that would die down during COVID and it really hasn't. And so, when you look at the next-gen community, that's no different, right?

So, as an example, my husband and I, you know, are next-gens. We have our own business, we plan to help other entrepreneurs and next-gens, we have a lot of our friends that are next-gens. [14:00] And yes, they're thinking about legacy and philanthropy, and they invest in funds and companies, but they're also starting their own. And I think that's a really exciting time. So, I think, how do we foster that in the world? You know, entrepreneurs, it's a rough road!

For example, most entrepreneurs are working day in, day out way more than a typical nine-to-five, but usually, they're trying to solve a problem or they're passionate about something in the world that they want to change. If you think about all forms of capital that next-gens—whether you're an entrepreneur that has access to wealth or you don't—they have access to social capital, they have access to—at Logictry, we talk a lot about logic and decision-making. They're really strong in discernment, right? Because of how much misinformation they're flooded with every day.

So, I think, you know, really just to kind of share an echo, it's just an exciting time. [15:00] I think next-gens are going to start businesses and change the game for the world for the better. And I also think that that's not possible without the elders and some of the families that have started actually America from entrepreneurship.

On our flight here to New York, we were watching, I think it was, The Men That Made America or something. And it was talking about Rockefeller and Ford and all of these different stories. But what really resonated with me from that was they had different people to rely on and that community to change into a new country. And I think for next-gens, instead of isolating ourselves, how do we, as entrepreneurs, as inheritors, as those that care about changing the world, whether you're a grassroots entrepreneur or you're one that's leveraging your family's assets, how do we come together in this time to innovate?

And I'm excited for that.

R. Adam Smith: No, that's such a beautiful way to say it. And thank you for that. I'm glad you brought in the [16:00] balance of the heritage that built our country, like the rainmakers, the Titans, and provided some nod of respect to what happened in the building of this country, especially the Industrial Revolution.

But then today, society is changing so quickly into, let's say, specialization, niche activities, incubating startups, and it's a risky business.

Jason, how's this working? How does the mothership both provide that support, let's say capital and intellectual support, but also the independence that Chelsea's talking about?

Jason Ma: Well, you know, of course one asset that the next-gen has is that the family would be able to back them up, maybe as a first investor. It's very interesting to see lots of SFOs, ultra-high-net-worth families out there with a new venture. They're also fundraising because they don't want to be the only money in.

Now, my critically acclaimed book that some of you have read, [17:00] Young Leaders 3.0, Stories, Insights, and Tips for Next-Generation Achievers, over one-half of the 23 Millennial and Gen Z high achievers that are exemplary were indeed entrepreneurial. Over one-half were my students. And then, you folks might also enjoy my Forbes articles, the one called Twelve Of Today's Most Impressive Young Entrepreneurs. And that thing went viral. It's got about probably close to 400,000 hits—not bad for a contributor.

And, you know, when it comes to building a company, whether you come from a family of wealth or you are just some poor kid that is going to be doing a lot of fundraising, you got to be very—most entrepreneurs fail, you know that. Most startups fail in technology. And you got to be super astute in terms o, what problem you're solving, what mark you're hitting. The team is hyper-important, [18:00] especially the founders and the early senior executives. Those are the guys that really make a company tick, right?

And then, what is it that you're competing against directly and indirectly? What problem are you solving? And, you know, a lot of next-gens are highly intellectual but lack the wisdom because they kind of lack life experience. And oftentimes, a lot of young people, in my experience having coached and mentored one-on-one hundreds of next-gens, you know—today I'm a lot more selective—they just kind of lack the wisdom and they don't know what they don't know, and they run into issues.

So, before a next-gen gets a nod or support from their parents and from others to start a company, if you're in your 20s or 30s, really ask yourself, is it what you really want to do? And does it really make sense? And you have to have a strong vision. It's kind of like when I coach my next-gens, right, Adam? [In] my 4S and 3EQ [19:00] mentorship framework, your vision and your story have got to be very, very clear.

I help my next-gens clarify their stories all the time so that they believe in the belief system. That's who they are. That's a character. That's their own story. They are the character. They're making their next movie. And I help them beef up their emotional/mental state of mind management, so they spend a lot more time in productive, happy states and do not get all stressed out in high anxiety.

And then, what are your interconnected strategies? Does it make sense? And your soft skills. Is it clear, your communication, your listening, your public speaking, your writing, your execution, right? Along the way, I raise their pragmatic, emotional, social, and leadership intelligence.

I think those are the basis wrapped around your resilience, adaptability, agility, your tenacity and right direction and compassion. Both are core skills and mindsets you need to have in order for you to maximize your probability for success as an entrepreneur.

R. Adam Smith: I agree with that. [20:00] And the only person who raises a broader range of personal intellectual challenges to optimize life than you is probably Tony Robbins. So, I have to listen very attentively to what you say, because it's quite a range. So, that's always impressive to me that you can cover that yourself. Your clients are very fortunate.

Let's go back up to governance. So, [to] each of you, governance is whether you're preparing for the next generation, right? Or you're merging a family, or you're selling a company, or you're changing the charter. Just kind of briefly, what is each of your views on, let's say, the true value of governance within a family enterprise? And what is the one piece of advice you would recommend that can optimize that governance across the generations?

We'll start with you, Emily.

Emily Bouchard: We can have a whole conversation just on that.

R. Adam Smith: Yes, that's like a couple of days on that one.

Emily Bouchard: Oh my gosh, that's huge. But it's so important. And basically, governance is just, what are your structures, [21:00] what are your policies that allow for really great shared decision-making within your family especially when you have an enterprise that is currently active, or you have shared assets that you have to make decisions about?

And every family is different, their holdings are different, their businesses are different, but there are certain qualities of governance that make a huge difference. So, one that's very helpful is [to] identify who the actual owners are. A lot of times a lot of estate planning happens, and people are told that they're owners of a company or they're owners of shares, but they have no idea what their role is. They have no idea what that means. It's just been a great idea from a legal perspective.

And so, using it as a way to educate and really understand, what does it mean? And creating an owner's council can make a huge difference in the family to help with empowering people within their roles and also understanding what's expected of them, and what they can expect from being an owner. And then, also, what are the requirements? And then, [22:00] where do they have a say or not, and why?

And then, [for] those that do have more power or say, perhaps, because they have voting shares or because they are working in the company, the other piece would be really clear policies and transparent communication of what's happening within the whole system, which takes care of a lot of issues when people don't know what's happening and they see that somebody in the family is working in the company or the family office and they're getting a bonus or they're having a new house built and they're not seeing any benefits from their quote-unquote “ownership.”

There are a lot of worst-case scenarios that can fill that void if you don't have that clear communication about, what are their qualifications? what are the standards that they're meeting? why is it that they're having this? so that everybody's on the same page about who's in what roles, why they're in those roles, how they earn that right to be in those roles, and what it is that allows them to stay in those roles.

So, those are the things I would say about governance. Chelsea, what would you add?

Chelsea Toler: [23:00] I would say, speak to what you're passionate about and what you know. So, for me, [that’s] part of what we do with Logictry. So, Chris and I, we partner with the United Nations on something called World Logic Day every year, which Jason has spoken at, and Emily has now spoken at this last year. But part of that was because the United Nations realized, in terms of decision-making and with things like AI rolling out, or difficult decisions, logic and asking the right critical questions can lead to not only peace but cross-sector collaboration.

So, I'll explain why this makes sense [from] the governance standpoint. So, one of the things that we're currently working on that I can share more publicly about in a couple of months is a partnership with a family office, but to really look at building out modules in decision-making and logic-based governance.

So, I think a lot of times people are focused on the end result or the decision, but what we also need to be looking at is, how are we asking the right questions [24:00] and what questions for your next-gens and your older gens, what are the questions that help arrive at a decision or at multiple decisions that everyone feels really great about?

So, my one piece of advice is [to] leverage logic and I'm happy to talk to you or provide frameworks or examples or tools that we have that are free to, you know, kind of help elevate that conversation.

The second thing I would say in speaking just to my own experience is, one of the things I've realized with my family is they involved me really early on in low-stakes decision-making that made those harder decisions as a family easier. So, I actually attended my first angel investment meeting and pitch session when I was 12 years old with my dad and I attended my first nonprofit grant award gala with my mom around that same age. And it helped me see, really early, [25:00] into kind of a world of decisions that someday I would need to be more actively a part of. But they let that be my choice.

So, my advice would be, leverage logic. It's never too early to start educating your kids and to make them feel really empowered with decisions. I think one of the things we hear a lot from next-gen friends or our community is that maybe they don't want to go into the family office or maybe they're scared of taking over decision-making.

R. Adam Smith: Exactly, it might be something different.

Chelsea Toler: But if you start small early, that would help.

R. Adam Smith: Everybody thinks about the family council as a structure that's useful. And I love what Chelsea said about the low stakes. Also, that getting at the table early. I did this with my children. It's not just the exposure, right? It's also the sign of respect and treating the young adult as an adult.

So, over to you, Jason, and then we have about 10 minutes.

Jason Ma: Right. Governance. First of all, start with love. [26:00] And I think communications and building that relationship between the parents and the kids are pretty important. I do that all the time. And as a patriarch, I would review my own vulnerability as part of my own self-improvement because the kids are always watching. Whether they’re teens, 20s, 30s, they're always watching you.

And secondly, is really make sure that while it's important, it's vital to have structure, but make sure that it is not 80% mechanics and 20% psychology. It should always be 80% psychology, 20% mechanics. In fact, Steve Young, the legendary 49ers quarterback, he and I were key speakers in the Legacy Builders conference a couple of months ago, and we had a conversation about that. The whole audience cannot agree more. In fact, Steve goes, "Wow!” That's very important.

I think it's also very important for the family and the next-gens this part of one of many subsets [27:00] that I really drill into the next-gens to improve their own habits and skills and mindset, and it's to make sure to really exhibit a growth and contribution mindset, not a fixed mindset.

Some of you read the book Mindset by Carol Dweck, I'm sure, right? The famous Stanford professor. And that was one of the most popular TED Talks ever. And along the way, you know, be outcome-focused or results-focused, be purpose-driven, certainly. And next-gens are very purposeful, on average, even though parts of the directions may not be optimal, but they are purposeful. And be execution oriented.

So, it's holistic, strategic, tactical, and also timing is always very, very important. In summary, yes, you have to have structure, but make sure that it is not a fake or superficial structure and is really ingrained into the spirits and mindsets of the family.

R. Adam Smith: That's wonderful. Last session, I had Jim [James] Grubman on the audiocast and we talked about the [28:00] fear factor and lowering the barriers to communication, and giving those stakes that Chelsea was talking about to make the cross-generational coordination less intimidating.

One more round here. Emily, you talk with families facing contentious situations and you have such a wonderful demeanor about you. So, kudos to you on tackling some of those tricky issues when there are some significant egos in wealth and businesses involved. And then, of course, there's multi-generational different marriages.

How do you approach some of these situations to involve a more secure environment and work through some of the concerns of all the parties involved? The succession planning can be quite challenging in blended families when there are active members and non-active members. So, maybe just talk a bit about these legacy strategies. [29:00] How much of that is, let's say, on the front end, and how much of that is during the process?

Emily Bouchard: Well, I love Chelsea’s family engaging her when she was 12. I think that, you know, engaging children as soon as you can and not being afraid about them quote-unquote “knowing” because, you know, just getting at that if they're being raised in an affluent community, they're surrounded by a certain milieu that they're just living in and the more that they can be aware of it and understand it, the better.

And I love Jim Grubman’s work, and Strangers in Paradise is a phenomenal book of his. Say you move to France, and you raise your children in France but you only speak English and then when they become adults you say, “Okay, now go be successful in France,” and they've never learned French, they're at a real disadvantage.

And so, one of the best things that you can do within a family system when you have significant assets, when you have an operating business, when you have a family office, is do what you can [30:00] to manage your fear and get the help that you need so that you can start having really meaningful conversations about the purpose behind the wealth. And it's all about, how do we start talking about the fact that we have a degree of access and privilege that many people in the world, the majority of people in the world, would never experience? And how do we bring, again, our values, our purpose, our passions to it in a way where we really can benefit each other and the world and where wealth is considered well-being? And so, it's this much more expanded view of wealth and not being afraid to talk about it and having really empowering conversations about it.

I think when the blended family piece comes up—this is when you have step situations, you have maybe kids from prior marriages, a current marriage, half siblings, step siblings—it's really important to have that fair versus equal conversation. There can be a lot of desire to have things be very equal [31:00] among family members when that's not the actual case for the family members because of the different parenting that they've had or parentage that they've had.

And being willing to talk about what is actually fair is extremely important. And it also is helpful when you have a special needs family member or you have a family member that's gone into a line of work that everybody really is inspired by because it's values-driven, but it's not going to be making the kind of money that another family member is very successful in the profession or entrepreneurship where they really did make a lot of money.

So, there are a lot of ways to think about, what's the purpose of our wealth and what are the values that wrap around it that make it so that we can be very purposeful and are going forward as a family? And I also recommend expanding out the conversation to not be thinking about just the current relationships but your relationships in the future, the people that will never know you but are going to benefit from it because it can tend to stop it being so personalized [32:00] and contentious and have a much broader view.

R. Adam Smith: This is good. We'll stay on the purpose, and then let's wrap up with purpose, and then make one more pass.

Chelsea, over to you.

Chelsea Toler: So, I think what Emily shared was done really, really beautifully. I'll stay on the theme of thinking about the important questions. So, what I'll share with that is probably the question I've gotten the most when I've spoken at family office conferences, or the next-gen conversation has come up with some of the older generations about succession planning and things like that. The question I get the most is what to do about spouses, which I think is really interesting.

I think a lot of families, you know, want to protect their kids, but also want to honor their kids. And so, I'll share from my personal experience, I think that if you build that foundation of decision-making and logic and that it's okay to fail and to undergo challenges together as a family early, [33:00] then it makes those more difficult questions easier to answer because you established that family dynamic of trust.

And even if you don't, say, you know, your kids are older, etc., you can always kind of re-center. And I would equate it to the same thing I would say as a board member of nonprofits, where they kind of, every three years, but really every year, go through a whole strategic planning process. I think families should do that as well, right? Like, what are our shared values? What is our shared vision? What is our shared legacy? What do we want to change? What do we potentially want to disrupt? What are we open to changing?

So, I would just encourage those things. And I also think, talk to other families. One of the things I want to see most change in this next year or two is really having more collaboration between families as opposed to, you know, kind of just being ancillary units because we're undergoing a lot of the same problems and challenges across the board.

R. Adam Smith: Jason, you're last up [34:00] on purpose, please.

Jason Ma: Absolutely. I go super deep with my own students and mentees and, of course, I get to know the parents real well—what their struggles are, what their values are. If they're not clear, I help them clarify. I help both generations really kind of accelerate communicating much more effectively and enhance the relationship. And I literally teach, guide, and mentor my students to deepen their gratitude for their parents and for their grandparents and how to tactically do that.

And so, it's really part of the soft skills and mindset training that I drove into them. I literally spent a time kind of instilling in them better and better habits so that, at the end of the day, the family legacy gets enhanced, right? Because, you know, listen, the leading gens, the patriarchs, matriarchs, what's most important to us besides wealth, health, happiness, is really peace of mind, relationships, and [35:00] joy, okay? And, of course, we want to preserve wealth and kind of grow our wealth as well.

Oftentimes, I find lots of families—and you know me. I speak all over the place, so I get invited to speak and then tour in all sorts of situations, family offices. I see quite a bit. And I like what Chelsea mentioned, you know; shadow your parents as early as possible, collaborate, learn from others, especially learning from other families, other people's mistakes, so that you can minimize the probability of your making the same mistake. But if you make the same mistake, if you make the mistake, make sure to learn from that, because no pain, no gain.

You're always learning. Become a learning machine. Become a world-class learner. And at the end of the day, be outcome-focused, and that is, you have a performance goal for your family business enterprise, or your family office, or in your school, or in your own business, or in your entrepreneurship. Or if you work for someone, maximize your [36:00] results here.

But also, at the same time, I really believe, guys, that happiness is a skill. Because I do that all the time, teaching my students. It's a learned skill. You become skillful in being happy. You know, that could be intergenerational.

R. Adam Smith: Okay.

Jason Ma: I could talk all day long.

R. Adam Smith: Yeah, no, I know. I have to cut you off. Otherwise, we'll have to pay you. We'll have to pay you for your time with all the advice.

Jason Ma: It’s only a couple of grand an hour. JK. Free, free.

R. Adam Smith: I'll put a Venmo account in the LinkedIn.

One more round. So, gratefulness. As a Midwesterner, I find it sometimes challenging to embrace the power of capitalism. Of course, [with] my name, I'm cursed with being a supporter of capitalism, and I want to be extremely wealthy for various reasons, but I'd like your thoughts briefly on that counterbalance and that trickiness of embracing capitalism and wealth. And especially [37:00] when the G1 produces wealth, what is some advice on helping the next generation not feel guilty or ashamed of that wealth and find a way to embrace that for everyone involved?

Emily Bouchard: Well, I have had the distinct privilege of working with PhD historians in different roles that I've been in, in various different institutions. And having and taking the time to capture your family's history, the good, the bad, the ugly. It's easier now than ever to get a lot of information about the history of your family. And it is so useful to be grounded in, what actually led to us being to where we are right now? And what were the core principles that our family followed? What were the biggest mistakes?

[38:00] I love that, Jason. Like, what were the biggest mistakes that we've learned from? What are the mistakes we're seeing that, wow, we ended up really benefiting from, but we now need to rectify because the world's a different place? And allowing for that space. And it is very delicate. And something that I do with multi-generational families a lot is helping the generations really understand each other's worldviews and world perspectives and not be antagonistic in terms of who's woke and who's not.

And, you know, we have a lot of things that are happening in our culture now that are very divisive. And there are so many ways that you can build bridges across generations and grant legitimacy to each person's point of view and then allow for, who are we now? And what does this wealth mean to us now? And where may we need to make some reparations? Or where do we want to shift this?

And I'll give a quick story of a young woman that I worked with whose grandfather had been extremely successful, and part of his success [39:00] and that the family was all benefiting from had to do with destroying forests. And she was devastated by that. She really cared about the environment, and she went to her grandfather.

And, Chelsea, I love that your research really highlights this, that, you know, having a great relationship with her grandfather. And when she recognized what had happened and what this meant for her in terms of the wealth is they ended up developing a family foundation that was all about reforestation that she ended up being the head of. And so, that's a great example of how when you can bridge the gaps, you can have a lot of respect for each other and you can cultivate the kind of listening that allows for a way to come up with solutions that can take a pain point related to the wealth and make it into a really meaningful, impactful way of utilizing the wealth.

R. Adam Smith: Thank you, Emily. I'm really interested in your thoughts on this Chelsea, please.

Chelsea Toler: So, a couple of things that [40:00] I think are important to highlight, and that is, sometimes I think next-gens can feel very siloed in the world because a lot of them have a lot of expectations, right? So, they've taken on a legacy that, in Emily's example, maybe wouldn't have been their choice. And they feel this responsibility to solve all of the world's problems. And we live in a world right now where the problems are vast. There's divisiveness, there's gender equality, there's the environment, there's poverty, there's not clean water everywhere. There are so many things, right?

And so, I think, you know, this has become more prevalent, but I'll share it again. One thing I think should be absolutely top of mind in the next-gen community is mental health. And how do we ensure that those resources are available across the board for all people, but particularly in next-gen communities? That's been top of mind.

Just because, you know, your grandfather had some [41:00] success, you're still human and humans have general basic needs and get overwhelmed. So, that's one point I'd like to make.

The second is the power of intergenerational communities. I really, really believe in the learning and the collaboration, and just what happens when you captivate that young energy of the next-gen and mix that with the wisdom, to Jason's point earlier, of some of the older generations. So, I think those are probably the top things I would say that are really, really core and important.

And then, the last thing I'll just share is—I think that Emily pointed to this—but it's also okay to forge your own path. And I think for me, I was very grateful. My family's business was financing and patent law. And I decided not to pursue law school and was not going to take over the firm. And I can only imagine how [42:00] difficult it would be if my family didn't champion me every step of the way in my own path.

So, I would just encourage older generations. You want the best for your kids. Of course you do, but also be open to that what you envision for their path may be different than what they do and really discuss that together.

R. Adam Smith: That's amazing. All right, Jason, you're wrapping us up talking about the balance of wealth and harmony and accepting that wealth for the next-gen.

Jason Ma: Outstanding wrap-up question. First of all, if, as a patriarch or matriarch, you're going to force the legacy down the throat of your next-gen, it never works. Because the next-gen is especially so digital, the way that they're raised in the family, in K-12 education, higher education, echo chambers, media, social media, mass media, communities, etc., they’re brought up in a way that, yes, like Chelsea mentioned, they do want to carve their own path, but along the way the path may [43:00] intersect deeply or broadly with the family.

And from my standpoint, typically as a trusted third-party chief mentor, I play practical psychologist all the time with both the next-gens and the leading gens, right? I’m kind of a monkey in the middle all the time. And these families are always super grateful for my help, right? Because sometimes the families are too close. And the kids will never fully listen to the parents. Parents would think they would get the best advice, but sometimes they're too close. They don't see that.

So, what I do, one-on-one—which is the most powerful way to improve an outcome, a person—is I think of myself as a bit of an optimizer and a maximizer. How can I optimize you, the next-gen, so that you get the best outcomes with your visionary story, your mindset, state of mind management, your soft skill strategies, execution? But it's aligned with your parents. But if I find something wrong [44:00] with the parents’ values or part of the things that they do, I pull the parents aside. Sometimes the parents pull me aside to train them, to guide them to communicate better, to build better relationships with the children. And along the way, help them both prepare super well at the next level so that they could exceed meeting or exceed the goals, and get the maximum results.

So, it's both optimization and maximization. It's very psychological, it's very spiritual in a way. I don't mean religion, but each one of us are spiritual beings and it's lots of emotion. And I keep honing their belief systems because a belief system is the main cost, the main supply chain, along with the self-talk, with the physiology, that puts you in the state.

Chelsea mentioned mental health is a big issue. That's a subset of what I teach and guide on all the time with kids, right? But all that can be honed. That's the good news. All that can be improved. So, the future is bright if you, you know, [45:00] if you're able to become as resourceful as possible. So, resourcefulness is pretty important.

R. Adam Smith: That's a great note to end on and to remember that we have within us with our families and our governance and our advisors, we have the ability to empower our cognitive knowledge and grow and learn and to share that with others.

Emily, thank you for joining us from Blended Families after your road trip. It's great to have you again on the audiocast today.

Emily Bouchard: Great to be here, thanks.

R. Adam Smith: And, Chelsea, you're a first time, but I hope to have you back and talk more about Logictry as well, And good luck on your move. It's great to have an official next-gen with us today.

Chelsea Toler: Thank you so much for having me.

R. Adam Smith: Yes, of course. Jason's back, he's in Brazil. So, enjoy that and tudo bom, tudo bem. Enjoy. Great to have you all. I'd like to thank you today and all of our guests in the future listening.

This is [46:00] R. Adam Smith signing off. Thank you to Jason Ma, Chelsea Toler, and Emily Bouchard. Stay tuned for the next episode of the Family Business Audiocast on LinkedIn.

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Explore the strategic intricacies of family business success with the RAS Family Business Audiocast. Join R. Adam Smith as he delves into exclusive discussions with global leaders shaping the future of private wealth and enterprise. Each episode offers a rare glimpse into the core decisions driving prosperity in high-stakes markets. Tune in to gain expert insights and innovative strategies that empower family businesses to thrive across generations.

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